E2 MQ1 Low Velocity and Leakage Help

[Papabyrd]

So I've rebuilt my Works Autococker 30-40 times thinking it's something obvious.

The pressure is around 220 psi when it starts to leak down the barrel perhaps I can get to 250-260 fps. The leak is at the noid but I do think the poppet spring stretch can raise the pressure. Stock length of poppet spring is supposed to be 0.500" and I found it as low a 0.435".

I've done everything. Replaced Urethane dot on solenoid a couple times which could slightly help the seal +10psi give or take. Stretched both solenoid spring and poppet springs to add more force to reach higher pressure.

I've added the white spacer ~0.035" thick. I tried an even thicker washer at 0.046" and while I could get the pressures way higher it seems like the valve closed much much faster. My timing settings are fairly conservative.

Son 4
cdel 4.9
con 45
coff 30


Perhaps my gun has always shot on the slow side, it was built in 2006 era but never had tons of use. Now I have a compressor so I can shoot more.

Freak barrel with tight insert for the ball.

I do think the poppet valve is very tight overall and may limit it's travel and air flow. I tried shaving down an oring to allow more clearance as I'm nervous to polish the poppet. It leaked at a lower pressure but I think perhaps I shaved too much off.

Grease is dow 33.

I've read every post on MCarterBrown and pbnation and am still quite stuck.

I've switched inline regs no change.

Very frustrated on this....

Thanks,

[flyweightnate]

It's been ages since i worked on an MQ2 and never an MQ1, but two things to think about.

SON is your valve open time; being a little aggressive while chasing velocity issues can't hurt. Your efficiency might suck but if it's tight, at least you'll have enough time to get it open. Then back it off until you see a problem.

Instead of shaving o-rings, try metric or stretching. Theoringstore.com has a great selection. Find a 1.5mm (0.059") instead of a 1/16" (which is actually .070") or go down a size so it stretches thinner. Material is important, too. I had a bad Morph valve, and switching from a cheap nitrile to a high quality urethane made a huge difference. Urethane just seems to slide a little faster, all else equal. I also use Superlube since it comes in a nice little tube, and has some Teflon particles in case it's a really tight fit. Good for FSDO.

Worst case, I've thought about meching a MQ. Run a plug from the back of the valve to a hose, run that hose to a Clippard 2-way (NC), and when you're venting, it's shooting. But that's probably not what you want to be doing to your Works.

[Frmrspec]

The white spacer on the piston is if you’re plan on running pressure in the 300-350 psi range. Traditionally I like my dwell a little longer so I usually run that around 5-5.5 (assuming the board lets you go that high) and keep my pressures in the 200-250psi range. I also run the CON time a little longer.. they are conservative settings speed wise but the goal is to get it working then fine tune. Are you running an LPC? And I’m guessing it’s an 11/16 valve size?

[Trbo323]

flyweightnate 4ms son timing is maxed out on a e2 board

If my memory is right, at least the mq2 maxes out at around 200psi before it starts venting so I'm wondering if you are just hitting that wall.

Have you looked at your bolt o rings? Too much blowby would cause low velocity

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[Frmrspec]

MQ1 and 2’s both had the same operating ranges. The main setup difference is whether or not you’re running the piston spacer, which allowed you to run higher pressures for efficiency/dwell sake

[flyweightnate]

Oh wow... yeah, it's been a while. 2009 was 3 years ago, right?

[Papabyrd]

Working backwords on the questions
-bolt has a tight fit but does not have orings. I have two Works cockers the other a pump shoot full speed no problem with the same bolt barrel setup.

There is no low pressure chamber on my autocockers.

11/16" valve, it has the stepped shoulder so 9/16" is the valve.

I absolutely did try other o rings as I have full o-ring kits of both normal and metric. There just wasn't a great one to swap, stretch etc. I did boil and oring thinking that could shrink it but it did nothing.

The venting at 200 psi for the MQ2. If it's the same for the Mq1, it's strange the instructions right from PBX talked about 300 psi or so for pressure.

I wish there was more info out there on the spacer dimension and do people put them on the solenoid circlip. I just found a random white piece of plastic in my old parts kit...

Thanks for the help

[Frmrspec]

You put the white spacer on the solenoid piston between the solenoid body and the spring.

[Frmrspec]

200psi was without the white spacer.. they were originally shipped with the spacer and told people to setup around 350psi

[Trbo323]

Yeah I would try a bolt with o rings. Just because a bolt worked on another cocker that runs a hammer and valve doesn't mean much. You are running much different pressure and dwell timing on this one

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[Frmrspec]

Here’s a better look at the solenoid piston and the solenoid body

[Frmrspec]

And a shitty gif screen shot to show where the spacer goes.. it doesn’t show either of the springs

[Frmrspec]

Which valve piston do you have? Do you have the one with an oring or flat disc?

[Papabyrd]

It was the flat disk.. which would not fit inside the solenoid.

the moody Pball animation it almost looks like the arrow points to underneath the circlip.

[Papabyrd]

Minor update,

I tried a 009 oring rather than a 010 and it was too loose. It had 0.070 wall thickness, where I have 010 of 0.070 too tight and 0.062 which fit too small on the poppet valve.
The 009 I wrapped teflon tape underneath and got a good fitting poppet.

The solenoid I took out the white spacer and it's venting again at 190 psi. I feel like every dissassembly of the solenoid changes the contact on the buna rubber pad and is more likely to leak. I always clock the position on the circlip but it's obvious the contact moves. The video shows the spacer on the circlip as I described above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoubPlDIElY&t=322s


Tomorrow I might try to put the white spacer back in. With the noid fully assembled you can barely feel the solenoid pull. If you take it apart and just put a finger on it it really pulls great because the force is balanced. I checked the resistance in 5.5 ohm which is what Magnetic sensors calls for.

My buddy has an identical e2/mq setups so I might just start swapping his parts back and forth. I feel like the capacitor in the E2 board could be weak or something.

MIght have to start doing some calcs and put my mech eng degree to work for a change... although dynamics is not my strongest subject.

[Trbo323]

My buddy has an identical e2/mq setups so I might just start swapping his parts back and forth. I feel like the capacitor in the E2 board could be weak or something.

That's not a bad thought and could explain a lot. I would start by just swapping his board in and using your settings and see if anything changes

Don't forget to take a baseline velocity with your current setup first though

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[Frmrspec]

I’ll make a disassembly video when I get home and talk about some of the issues and things to look out for. I hate disturbing MQ-valves once they’ve been installed without leaking or problems but mine needs to come out anyway I’ve just been putting it off

If the oring on the piston is tight in the valve body, it’s not a huge deal. The dynamic shifting forces of the valve are so high that it doesn’t matter. If you really wanted to reduce drag and get a good seal you could throw a U-cup or quad seal on that but in my experience it really isn’t necessary.

[Papabyrd]

And we're back. The gun is now fixed shooting 280-304 fps @ 238 psi input pressure just barely below venting out pressure on the solenoid. The variance in speed I believe is older warped paint shape.

What's different or why did it work this time as opposed to the 50 other times..... hmmm

1. brand new 9V pushing 9.7 V.
2. Super close inspection of the aluminum poppet, there was tiny tiny scratches at the front near vertical port. I used lapping compound on q-tip spun it with drill and buffed it down. The scratches were still slightly visible and didn't get carried away trying to restore mirror finish. Perhaps in the future I will. Care needs to be used when removing the poppet, I think one of my allen wrenches was used, so in the future I would use wood tooth picks for pushing the poppet valve assembly out.

3. I made up a nail 0.032-.020 thick or there about and check the crush with the spring out of solenoid. No changes were made but it gave me a feel that with that with a new dot the assembly was good. Even the instructions say to unscrew the thread a bit with the nail so the exact preload is likely not +-0.002 or something as the dot wears in.

4. Replaced the dot with a freshy in the solenoid. Increased reg pressure slow, minimized leakage going up slow in pressure.

5. changed reflectivity to 78% rather than stock 50%. This changes should have done nothing, paint was 96% reflective either color, bolt is 50%.


Big thanks to BeekerMartin on the dots. At some point I might do the urethane sheet and send you them as perhaps the neoprene is a little softer or more porous. It's hard to believe it could be so finicky.

Hope it shoots good for a few cases here now that it's back in action.

Now to get my buddies E2 Mq1 in shape.

[Mr.Dirt]

I didn't see it mentioned, did you ever mess with your lpr pressure, or notice any significant blowback? Since mq's don't have that extra recocking mass it's easy to set the lpr a wee bit low, which can cause the bolt to blow backwards with paint and cause low velocity.