Mystery problems

[VintageZoomer]

I bought a mid 2000s phantom a couple months ago, and have been rebuilding it, but I'm seeing some weirdness in the way it behaves.

Is the phantom supposed to shoot if you simply pump it hard without a finger on the trigger? Mine does this.

Also, should a phantom with CCI internals need a red spring to hit 275 fps on CO2? That also seems wrong to me.

Eager to know what you guys think.

[iamthelazerviking]

Definitely should have silver springs. Cup seal ok?

[VintageZoomer]

Cup seal looks okay, and I don't hear any leaks, but I'm not sure that guarantees anything. Would needing a red spring and poor efficiency suggest a bad cup seal?

[Fossilhead]

You may have bought someone's experiment.
guys have messed with regs, spring combos, power tube lengths, fluted hammers etc trying to squeeze 2 more shots out of a 12 gram.

I'd grab a stock valve spring and hammer spring and start there.

If you need a cup seal, I'd look for one of the black magic cup seals that were available on here recently.

[JeepDVLZ45]

Check to be sure your front body screw isn’t backing out and be sure the pump arm is seated properly in the bolt.

oh, and run a silver spring. 😉

[VintageZoomer]

You may have bought someone's experiment.
guys have messed with regs, spring combos, power tube lengths, fluted hammers etc trying to squeeze 2 more shots out of a 12 gram.

I'd grab a stock valve spring and hammer spring and start there.

It's my experiment, unfortunately. I tried the red spring because the silver one wasn't hitting velocity. The hammer and bolt appear stock. The valve spring is silver.

I'm thinking at this point it's gotta be the cup seal or my phantom is cursed..

[Chuck E Ducky]

Take some pictures of the internals and what you’re working with.

Is the pump arm orientated in the proper spot?

What does the sear look like?

Check the engagement points on the bolt like the sear dose it look like it’s engaging properly. It should be pretty much a right angle and catch on the back lip of the bolt.

Is your pump arm screwed to far in try backing it out a bit see if that helps.

Make sure your the brass piece on the cup seal is orientated properly and that your Cup Seal is tight. Try flipping it over see if that helps.

Insure the body and valve body are pushed tight together when you tighten down the grip frame screws.

Stock Silver springs should have no issues hitting 280fps 1.5 to 2 turns in from flush on the TPC.

Dose your TPC (center of the bolt velocity adjustment) have a slot for a regular screwdriver or a hole for an Allen key (aka open face TPC)

[VintageZoomer]

Posted pics below..

The pump arm is connected for sure.

The sear was hard to capture, maybe a little silvery but not terribly worn.

I just tried backing off the pump arm a bit, but no change resulted from it.

I posted both sides of the cup seal, either side saw the same velocity issues.

Everything fits tightly and with tightened screws, I triple checked this per your and Jeep's suggestion.

It's a screw driver TPC.

[VintageZoomer]

[jdgreen76]

I'm not an expert, but I'd replace that cupseal.

[VintageZoomer]

I did find that the cup seal was pretty loose. Don't know why it wasn't giving an obvious leak, but I'll rechrono this weekend to see if it helps the silver spring do better. Also tried backing the pump rod out more, didn't help. Very strange, I'm hoping the answer isn't a worn sear because it looks like they only sell the entire trigger frame.

Editing again: even worse, I didn't understand how Nelsons work..it can't have anything to do with the trigger

[Chuck E Ducky]

If the cup seal was loose that’s your issue. 1.5 turns in from flush in on the TPC put the silver spring in it. That should put you super close over the chrono 280 ish with a good bore match.

Internals look good back your Pump arm out a few turns. Re set that nut or remove it (I take them off) it’s impossible to move on you when the barrel is installed.

If that grease in the trigger frame wipe it clean as you can use a few drops of oil. (No grease) lightly oil just enough to make it look wet. I like to polish up the contact points but it’s not necessary just insure they are clean. The sear slot need to be free of anything that will slow the hammer down on it rearward strike of the valve face, otherwise it will be super inconsistent and need more spring to do it job properly. Make sure that channel is clean and lightly oiled.

LMK if that works for you it should.

[VintageZoomer]

Internals look good back your Pump arm out a few turns. Re set that nut or remove it (I take them off) it’s impossible to move on you when the barrel is installed.

LMK if that works for you it should.

I've got the pump about 1/3 of the way off the end of the threading, still experience slam fire. Seems to have gotten more sensitive too. Doesn't happen every time, but I can definitely see it happening in a game where I might not remember to be slow with it.

Edit: I believe what is happening is that the pump is going to far forward, past when the sear engages. I've been testing this without the breech/air so I can watch it happen slowly. I'm not sure how I never had it happen before, or why it's happening now.

[Chuck E Ducky]

It won’t cock without air. You don’t need the pump arm out that far screw it in till you get a little resistance then back it out a few turns. You won’t be able to tell if you don’t have air or co2. Make sure the pivot points on the sear and trigger are not sticking as well they should move freely and spring back into place,

[flyweightnate]

Is your sear slot in the trigger frame wonky? The narrow bit between the pump arm slot and trigger slot looks rolled over. It might be grabbing the sear. Maybe file it smooth and flat.

[VintageZoomer]

I noticed that this morning, it was definitely causing some binding. Bent it back out and sanded smooth, but no change in behavior.

[VintageZoomer]

The cup seal is now completely shot...leaks down the barrel using either side.

Do I order a new hammer while I'm buying a new cup seal? I'm running out of ideas/patience with this thing.

[Handy]

It looks like you've got an old style sear on a new style hammer, or at least it looks very familiar to the one in What2007s thread. I'll have to double check when I get home, but I'll see if there are any issues with clearances/tolerances between the different styles.

If you get tired of messing with it and don't mind shipping it, I would gladly take a look for you.