Older Spyders - Can’t Hit 280fps on CO2

[nak81783]

Spyder SE - Maxing out around 270 fps.

Spyder Xtra (first gen) - Maxing out around 245 fps.

I’ve tried multiple known full tanks and swapping in new old stock springs. I also removed the venturi bolt insert from the Xtra which bumped it from about 235 fps to the aforementioned 245 fps.

If I remember correctly, back in the late 90s and early 2000s, my friends and I had no problem hitting 300 fps with our Spyders on CO2 with plenty of adjustment left.

I understand paint is smaller these days, but I can get 300 fps from my other markers using the same size or bigger barrels.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[Buff_phroggie]

What is the ambient temp? Co2 can be greatly affected by temp changes

[NONOBLITUS]

You running at least an 800 psi tank ? I have no problems with mine hitting proper velocity

[Trbo323]

You running at least an 800 psi tank ? I have no problems with mine hitting proper velocity

My man ... Read

CO2 homie

Longer tighter barrel will likely do the trick

Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[NONOBLITUS]

Ahhh right

[Kit352]

Almost certainly the barrel is causing you grief. Most spyder barrels tend to be around .690. today's paint can be as small as .670. a good barrel match can give you 30 fps so that would put in the ball park.
You didn't mention if you have a velocity adjuster on the spyders. Do you?
Make sure you have that black plastic spring guide too. Makes a massive difference.

[nak81783]

I have some relatively large paint (~0.687) and some stiffer main springs you could try.

Yeah, worth a try. Bring all that with you next time, please.

What is the ambient temp? Co2 can be greatly affected by temp changes

My basement is about 65-70 year-round.

Almost certainly the barrel is causing you grief. Most spyder barrels tend to be around .690. today's paint can be as small as .670. a good barrel match can give you 30 fps so that would put in the ball park.
You didn't mention if you have a velocity adjuster on the spyders. Do you?
Make sure you have that black plastic spring guide too. Makes a massive difference.

Both have velocity adjusters maxed out. Spring guides are present.


As for the multiple comments on paint and barrel size/length, I’m using nylon riot balls (very consistent 3.7 grams at .6785) out of 2 stock barrels, a 14”J&J, and a 14” Dye glued stainless back, all with similar results. Using these nylon riot balls in the past on different markers and a 14” .693 CP, I could hit 300+ fps with numerous Gamma Core markers, an Etek 5, numerous Azodin KD2/3s, numerous Autocockers/Snipers, numerous Automags, heck even a TiPX with its huge bore, short stock barrel.

I had a similar issue with multiple inline blowbacks last year but not nearly as bad. CO2 could just get them there, but I had to shim an HPA tank reg to 900psi to reach 280 on the inline blowbacks.

Are these less expensive markers sprung in this manner to avoid outlaw players from just cranking up the velocity to unsafe levels, since many don’t have/use a chrono? But again, I don’t seem to remember having trouble reaching 300 fps decades ago.

I’ve got an Eko valve and pin coming, hopefully tomorrow. I’ll see if that makes a difference. I’m wondering if these old, stock valves could benefit from the 2-diameter pin style with the smaller diameter allowing more air to the bolt and the flat still ground on the bigger diameter to allow for blowback air, since the old valves don’t have the dedicated hole for blowback air.

[nak81783]

Normal paint has similar results. I’ll try to quantify that later.

Concerning the Eko valve and pin, I only have pics and diagrams until it arrives. From the info I have, the valve has a dedicated blow back air hole, so the nose diameter of the pin is “basically” the same diameter as the valve hole. The pin has two diameters, and there is no ground flat on the larger diameter.

[FlightMedic938]

nak81783 I was mistaken. It’s the Azodin valve stem I’m thinking of. I don’t think I’ve seen the Eko one.

[Buff_phroggie]

The nylon balls do tend to be faster due to weight differences. I have seen 30-40 fps jump with the ebay reballs that I have

[Sdawg]

This is an easy one. It's the bore size difference.

[scottieb]

Along with paint to bore match, check the main spring for weakness and check that the metal disc is between the RVA and the spring guide.

[nak81783]

This is an easy one. It's the bore size difference.

And I’m willing to accept that, but I would like thoughts on why the older STBBs are so far off when the modern Azodins were fine, the modern inline blowbacks just got there, and all the other markers I listed were fine.

Admittedly, with fresh springs, the only thing that’s changed is paint size. I remember seeing 330-350 fps out of older Spyders decades ago, but that was with .689+ paint.

I’ll have to play with different valves, pins, and springs. I don’t like the idea of chasing barrel sizes when I’ve seen paint vary up to .035 from ball to ball in the same bag, and .015 is common.

[nak81783]

Along with paint to bore match, check the main spring for weakness and check that the metal disc is between the RVA and the spring guide.

I’ve tried 3 different “heavy” main springs, one of them NOS. I’ll try some others. Metal disk is present in both markers.

Ive also tried various valve springs, but none made a difference. I think at CO2 pressure, the pressure is closing the valve. The spring is just there as a guide.

I should add that the Xtra has a different cup seal, the larger style with the “guide wings” as part of the seal itself. I’ll swap that over to the SE to see if it affects anything.

[Sdawg]

Try a smaller bore size and report back

[scottieb]

Also make sure the SE (fatty striker) has the thicker bumper behind the striker and the Xtra (slim striker) has the thinner bumper behind the striker.

[nak81783]

scottieb The bumper are as you described. Still curious how that affects velocity though.

[scottieb]

The thicker bumpers on a slim striker will prevent the striker from going all the way back. This equals less tension on the spring. You'll often have trouble keeping the striker cocked. Low velocity and trouble recocking can also be had when the bumper is installed in front of the striker.

[nak81783]

OK. I figured, as long as it's staying cocked, it's resetting on the sear and compressing the main spring consistently.

[scottieb]

Also, stock bolts?

[nak81783]

Yes. Xtra has venturi insert removed. Tried swapping bolts between the two markers, and surprisingly, the one from the SE with the venturi insert still installed has about 10fps over the other one.

[xanoril]

Sounds like a classic bore vs paint match issue. Even small differences can drop FPS noticeably on these old Spyders.😎🙂

[GanonsGrin]

The older spyders aren’t tolerant to small paint at all. Every other marker you have tried with the larger bore barrels are all newer and built to tighter tolerances than the old spyders. Newer stuff is just made to perform with less fuss and mucking around.

going a different direction, are the detents good in your spyders? If the ball is floating on a weak detent ahead of the bolt, your efficient is going to be bad as well.

Like others have said though, the most common culprit here is going to be your paint to bore match. Grab a freak barrel and start dialing it down with inserts and see how it changes as you get tighter bore matches. It makes a world of difference on those old workhorses.

[nak81783]

Detents seem fine, but I have more on order. I can’t shake or tap the marker in any manner (that won’t ding up the marker or barrel) to get the ball to roll past the detent.