Can We Talk About Quality Control?

[Diomedes]

I have a beautiful 45 Pug. Love the thing. But...the tubes are not aligned. The top tube is off kilter. It leans just a bit to the left. So like if you put a ruler edge vertically against the left side, it touches the top and bottom tubes, and there's a gap to the middle, and if you put it against the right side, it sits on the middle tube and rocks.

How does something like that even leave the shop?

I'd think that with the money people pay for these new (I got it 2nd or 3rd or 8th hand), there would be some pretty stringent checks as they're put together, but...not always, I guess?

[Axel]

"Quality control" is an old mindset from the forties (or, like, the seventies or later, if you're American... sigh). Build a bunch of parts, sort out the bad ones, and throw them away. Incredibly wasteful of various resources, all boiling down to money.

"Quality assurance" includes "control" but emphasizes process designs that make it harder or ideally impossible to produce a bad part in the first place ("poka-yoke" which means "error proofing" > notice how quality assurance jargon tends to come from Japanese words... again, sigh).

So in the case of your gun, we'd need to perform a root cause analysis to determine exactly how the defect occured and why we failed to detect it at the moment of occurance. I don't know anything about Palmer's processes, but one might, for example, create a fixture jig that locks the tubes in place for soldering. We could design a detection fixture where the soldered tubes pass through an orifice that would cause it to bind in the fixture if the tubes are in the incorrect position or out of parallel. And then you could really error-proof the whole process by automating the opening and closing of the jig, using robots to place tubes, adding various sensors to check part presence and position, and then maybe switching to a braze process and run the parts through a continuous oven to ensure even heating of the workpiece every time, and eliminate the human operator (human beings make mistakes). Of course all this needs run through a PLC control system to collect process data and set off alarms and automatic stops in case a sensor detects a process parameter outside the control limits.

And... All this stuff is impossibly expensive for a small custom shop with basically endless product variants, but I couldn't resist the temptation to lecture you about a topic where I get to be the expert for once. 😁

[Axel]

I have zero knowledge of Craig's shop but the general principle is that human-reliant processes will produce defects. We get lazy or inattentive or just plain bored repeating the same task all day. So maybe that day I forgot to complete my inspection checklist, or I did measure the part but didn't isolate it properly so that someone else picked it up later and put it back in the workstream.

[Axel]

And Rusty, I took the afternoon off 😉

[Grendel]

To go along with Axel if you have 3 separate inspections for the same control point that is done by humans you will only get it right 85% of the time.

[Rusty Brass]

Palmer's has always been a sort of "garage shop" kind of operation, I think. Plenty of their stuff is perfect but there are also plenty of Friday-at-4:30 or grandpa's-been-drinking guns and parts. I'm not trying to be harsh, it just seems to be part of their mystique at this point. What's the word all the kids are using now, bespoke?

[iamthelazerviking]

Magmoormaster can tell you all about PPS and quality. Also not trying to bash 'em, but unfortunately it seems to be more common.

[WALZ]

Craig would never let this pass. He is pretty anul about his markers..
sometimes hired help is a issue..
believe it or not it is hard to find some one who's heart is in his work.

[fullofpaint]

I love my PPS stuff but yea thing's can be a bit wonky sometimes.

The Nasty I had built a while back came with a bolt pin that was just a hair too short, so if you really railed on the trigger, sometimes one bolt would fly off and back at you.

My Blazer for some reason only works with some of the cups in the switch arranged the wrong way. On the upside it shoots stupid fast for a mech, but it may break the ram as some point haha.

But they've also gone out of their way for me sometimes too! Sent a KP3 in for a performance tune but the previous owner had kludged on a 68 magnum feed and done a bad job. They put on a proper right feed and repainted the whole gun for no charge. A Typhoon I sent in for a rebuild had had the barrel dented by the previous owner, they cut the tip off and gave me a muzzle brake for free.

[MAr]

I had a short pin on a Nasty as well, pump that bolt right back into my face...

[Magmoormaster]

Magmoormaster can tell you all about PPS and quality. Also not trying to bash 'em, but unfortunately it seems to be more common.

Yeeeeah, every single time I've dealt with Palmers there have been QA issues. I ordered a Micro Rock only to find the barb threads stripped prior to ano. Had to ship it back and get a new housing, a process that took over a month. Another time, I was installing some fresh from the factory pneumatics onto a cocker. Got to the ram, and found that the ram piston was not loctited to the shaft. I was able to unscrew the shaft from the piston without any effort, and it leaked.

Neither were huge deals, and maybe I just happened to get the two flukes, but I consider it unacceptable to have these kinds of issues from the factory this consistently. I was never a huge fan of PPS stuff before these experiences (always found them overrated, never lived up to the hype, there was always better options for similar prices), but after those experiences I pretty much refuse to use PPS as much as possible. The ONLY thing I will use from them is Rock LPRs (even then only in specific cases) and some of their sheridan stuff (only because there's no alternative).

[XEMON]

I've came across a few seals kit (bought from them after giving them serial number) and half of the o-ring were the wrong size and half missing.
And both cup-seals I got from them leaked from the start ...
BUT, I have emailed Greg and he helped me out with reg pressure setup in ways they're not supposed to go ... He helped make that project field ready ...

[Jonnydread]

PPS seems to be greatly polarizing. I don't have much of an opinion on their parts, haven't really used them outside of the occasional stabilizer, but I love their guns. They definitely have the homemade feel to them, which could be good or bad depending on your position.

[k_obeastly]

. Of course all this needs run through a PLC control system to collect process data and set off alarms and automatic stops in case a sensor detects a process parameter outside the control limits.

And when the alarms do go off, 95% of the time the sensor that set off the alarm has gone bad.

I've only bought one thing from pps that I have been completely happy with...a T-shirt.

[gabe]

I've had both good and bad from PPS. My P68sc is a beautifully built gun but mainly I think because Sheridan did it and PPS just tuned and refinished it. Blazer leaked from day 1 and is nearly impossible to rebuild so it just went in a box. Had a Hurc at one time that worked for about 9 months then started leaking out of every orifice so it went down the road.

Seem like good guns when they work but I wouldn't trust PPS to design anything pneumatic and make it reliable. Tune and refinish maybe, but not a clean sheet design.

[Archdogg]

I've order two Blazers new from Palmers. One in 98 from Glen and One this year from Craig both work perfectly. I've also owned six used Blazers that I've rebuilt. I've also bought alot of cocker pneumatics and various Pgp parts. Only problems I've ever had was slow email responses. I've since switched to phone calls and they always make time for me even when its just over the phone technical help. I honestly have never had a quality issue with Palmers. Obviously some people have by the responses here. As for the original question about the Pug. Are you certain it left Palmers in that condition? Was it damaged by a previous owner and repaired? My experience would lead me to believe that it didn't come like this and if it did they would replace it if it had. This is just based off my personal accounts and I realize everyone has their own experience and point of views on the matter.

[Diomedes]

The nickel is all original, and I had a Squall a while back (from the Freedom Squall order) that had the same problem.

[Archdogg]

Well then there you have it.

[MAr]

I have a beautiful 45 Pug. Love the thing. But...the tubes are not aligned. The top tube is off kilter. It leans just a bit to the left. So like if you put a ruler edge vertically against the left side, it touches the top and bottom tubes, and there's a gap to the middle, and if you put it against the right side, it sits on the middle tube and rocks.

How does something like that even leave the shop?

I'd think that with the money people pay for these new (I got it 2nd or 3rd or 8th hand), there would be some pretty stringent checks as they're put together, but...not always, I guess?

I received a PPS NHT I ordered. The barrel lengths didn't match. It was obvious to the eye. 3/32 off. That is a tolerance I wouldn't allow on hardwood carpentry. I've had crooked blazer feedneck welds, Guns show up missing parts. I could go on.

That being said: the best guns I have ever shot have been PPS guns. I have a houndstooth sitting here that is my dream gun. I have had blazers that were more surgical than scalpels.

[Secretweaponevan]

I love my Blazer 1 SN#279. I'm curious what you mean by "more surgical than scalpels."
Not looking to bash, just curious.
I feel that a Blazer is a gentleman's autococker.

[dstud2000]

I’ve owned many PPS products over the years and still do. The only problems I have had are generally self induced. In my opinion they are not meant for the casual tinkerer. Use them, clean them, oil them, thats how I feel.


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[Jonnydread]

Agreed. I'll add that PPS guns get jealous of other guns so you need to use them enough to keep them satisfied.

[Ecapnation]

I had a team mate receive a nasty houndstooth where the barrels were crooked by a degree so severe the paint collided about 30 foot out consistently

[XEMON]

Dam that suck ...

[Alexndl]

So you need to hit someone at less than 30 feet or he just get spray painted...

Did palmer took it back for repair?
At least they should have tried it before shipping

[Ecapnation]

Alex....

Honestly.... I don't know. I've not seen it in years, and he never brings it up

[XEMON]

I feel like it depends what type of product from PPS you're talking about ...

I never had any issue with the stabs ... Never ...

but, I never had a new sheridan stem seal, and the rebuild kit always have extras but are also missing a few rings ...

That being said, the customer support is great, Palmer himself got back to me to do some exotic reg settings ...