In the 'is it me or?' series: 98 Custom vs. A-5

[The Jayster]

I bought a used 98 Custom (with ACT) before I went on vac. I refurbished it and added a Lapco barrel (which I also got on the cheap). I used it today and while it works well, it seemed to me that the shot quality was much rougher than on my 100% stock A-5. Yet the internals are pretty much the same no?

As a side note, I was shooting relatively brittle Valken Graffiti from last year fairly fast (for a mech blowback) and had no chops. I think the ACT does work as advertised.

[Trbo323]

The internals are all the same concepts but almost none of the parts are interchangable

I've had lots of tippmanns that shot fine and others that feel rough. It's kind of a crap shoot. Even the different years of 98 feel different. The barrel plays a decent role in all that but honestly I wouldn't read too far into it

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[Chappy]

My kid’s 98 is smooth and quiet. My loaner 98 is clunky and loud. They both shoot around the same velocity. They’re different gens but still basically identical internals & layouts. I dunno. I had a 98 years ago that was smooth as butter and I still regret letting it go. I don’t think I’ve ever chopped with a 98 tho. Plenty of barrel breaks.
Don’t you have to recock if the act engages? Did you have to do that? Curious as I’ve never messed with one.

[The Jayster]

When I was unwittingly trying to outshoot it I think the ACT engaged itself yet I didn't have to re-cock the gun.

[Trbo323]

Don't you have to recock if the act engages? Did you have to do that? Curious as I've never messed with one.

No, the way it works on a tippmann it basically delinks the connecting arm from the hammer. This allows the bolt to stop in it's travel but the hammer keeps going and hits the valve as normal. Since the bolt is stuck somewhere in it's travel the air pulse still comes through but typically goes under the paintball in the feedneck. Since the hammer still hit the valve you get the normal reset for the hammer

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[FlightMedic938]

The A-5 valve is more refined and the clamshells have better tolerances. The trigger panels on the A-5 give the trigger better stability and more reliable sear engagement

[Trbo323]

“The clamshells have better tolerances.” That one cracks me up. I'm sure it's true, I just find it hilarious that they have done so well for themselves making guns that have the look and feel of industrial sewing machines. Tippmann is by far the most high end gun…that is manufactured from two halves split down the middle squirt-gun style. They absolutely rule that segment of the market.

I'd say BTs are far better if we are restricting this to clamshell bodies

And no, the A5 does not have better tolerances, it's the same manufacturing process. Best case it's the same, I've certainly had more problems with A5 bodies than 98 bodies

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[FlightMedic938]

The process was the same but refinements were made by the time the A5 rolled out. The 98 was made with loose tolerances purposefully to prevent jamming from dirt, paint, and owner neglect. It was very smart and made them a lot of money

I think as the game grew so did the customers ability to perform simple maintenance and minor fixes. People were also taking better care of their shit. They had an entry level and, at that time, decided to release the A5 as an intermediate level. That allowed them to tighten it up a bit like thicker shells with a better mating surface, tighter knurled pin fits, less slop in the linkage arm, less hammer wobble, tighter valve seating, and sear engagement was machined flatter. Probably other stuff too but I’m drawing a blank. It had to be because of the Cyclone. If it was as loose as the 98 it would jam constantly. It works on the 98 but not in the same way as the A5. The A5 gets the air from the channel but the 98 is robbing “excess blowback” so it doesn’t have to be as precise. Later on they even machined a dedicated channel and O ring for the Cyclone on the receiver half for the A5

[Trbo323]

Most of this is tippmann propaganda

The process was the same but refinements were made by the time the A5 rolled out. The 98 was made with loose tolerances purposefully to prevent jamming from dirt, paint, and owner neglect. It was very smart and made them a lot of money

The other things is by the time the A5 was rolled out the company was under new management. Ben tippmann left and started up BT, it was basically a different company producing the A5

I think as the game grew so did the customers ability to perform simple maintenance and minor fixes. People were also taking better care of their shit. They had an entry level and, at that time, decided to release the A5 as an intermediate level.

I mean, that's what they tried to bill it as but at it's core it's the same operating system

That allowed them to tighten it up a bit like thicker shells with a better mating surface, tighter knurled pin fits, less slop in the linkage arm, less hammer wobble, tighter valve seating, and sear engagement was machined flatter.

One of my friends had an A5 that formed a bur in the breach. He ended up spending around $300 chasing the problem since it was only slicing paintballs every once in a while. Those great tolerances and thicker shells did...... Not manifest for him. I've always suspected the A5 shells were made from a weaker aluminum and that's why they made them thicker to compensate. Not like I have proof but it's always been a suspicion

What knurled pins? The A5 doesn't use any. It has the receiver pins and I have to ask, if the tolerances are so good, why do I end up having to use a hammer to get some in/out on roughly every other A5 i work on? The only other pins are in the trigger group which has a plastic housing inside a plastic grip frame. Nothing to do with the body shells

The linkage arm is held in position by the charging handle which is spring loaded. That fitment has nothing to do with body tolerances

Hammer wobble? I don't have any in all the 98s I work on and I polish the piss out of most of them. I'm removing material, if anything i should have a ton by what you are describing

Valve seating, it sits in the power tube. Cast plastic, again, not a body tolerance thing, the valve and body shells don't even touch

The sear also sits at a different angle, id suspect some changes because of that.

If anything tippmann went out of their way to change things they didn't need to. Why use the same barrel threads for instance? Using new (yes I understand it's actually an older tippmann thread) threads would mean all those players with aftermarket barrels for the 98 could not use the same barrel and would likely be purchasing new ones. They also had to manufacture the barrel thread adaptor just to change the threads because the a5 threads are so fine they couldn't cast them. Power tube, valve, hell even the ASA they changed. And yes, i suspect they had good reasons for some of this but all? No way they already had the machine tools set up for stuff like the 98 ASA and chose to completely redesign it

Probably other stuff too but I'm drawing a blank. It had to be because of the Cyclone. If it was as loose as the 98 it would jam constantly. It works on the 98 but not in the same way as the A5. The A5 gets the air from the channel but the 98 is robbing “excess blowback” so it doesn't have to be as precise. Later on they even machined a dedicated channel and O ring for the Cyclone on the receiver half for the A5

My dude, they take air from the same spot. The tippmann design is extremely inefficient but you typically don't see a velocity hit when adding a cyclone because the system is already using a butt ton more air than it really needs. The air that powers the cyclone is air that has already come through the valve and is already headed for the barrel.

They added the o ring in the A5 so they didn't have to cast the output "peg" into the a5 power tube like the 98 has. I'm sure that was a failure point in the casting if anything was going to go wrong. Not to mention, if the tolerances were so great, why did they even need the o ring? That section only sees pressure for a fraction of a second

Tippmann wants you to believe that it's "excess blowback" air but the only thing true there is that it's excess. The air the blows back the hammer to reset escapes around the hammer after the hammer o ring clears the power tube. It largely goes through the two halves of the clamshell but there's no way to collect it and send it to the cyclone

Cyclone(and RT) air is pulled from the air that is already headed towards the barrel. In fact after it is done powering the cyclone or RT it vents down the barrel

Remember though that when Ben tippmann left and the company changed hands they moved most of their production overseas. Taiwan, Malaysia, somewhere like that, I forget, some place really well known for great tight tolerances... Oh no wait, known for cheap production that's right.



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[Chappy]

The A5 was released 2 years before Ben Tippmann left.

[Trbo323]

The A5 was released 2 years before Ben Tippmann left.

Huh I thought those two were much closer together. I mean it's obvious he did a lot of the design work on the gen 1 regardless but everything after that was the conglomerate

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[FlightMedic938]

Most of this is tippmann propaganda


Ok

The other things is by the time the A5 was rolled out the company was under new management. Ben tippmann left and started up BT, it was basically a different company producing the A5


Ben left Tippmann 2 years after the A5 was released

I mean, that's what they tried to bill it as but at it's core it's the same operating system

The core is the valve and it’s better but yeah I get what you’re saying.

One of my friends had an A5 that formed a bur in the breach. He ended up spending around $300 chasing the problem since it was only slicing paintballs every once in a while. Those great tolerances and thicker shells did...... Not manifest for him. I've always suspected the A5 shells were made from a weaker aluminum and that's why they made them thicker to compensate. Not like I have proof but it's always been a suspicion

Damn, I’ll pour one out for him

What knurled pins? The A5 doesn't use any. It has the receiver pins and I have to ask, if the tolerances are so good, why do I end up having to use a hammer to get some in/out on roughly every other A5 i work on? The only other pins are in the trigger group which has a plastic housing inside a plastic grip frame. Nothing to do with the body shells

There are knurled pins in the trigger panels…. You say you work on Tippmanns a lot…. With a hammer? BRUH! C’mon man! This was a meatball over the plate so I had to swing lol

The linkage arm is held in position by the charging handle which is spring loaded. That fitment has nothing to do with body tolerances

The charging handle holds the linkage arm in place…. No, no it doesn’t. The charging handle engages the front bolt when pulled back and pushes the front bolt, linkage arm, and hammer back until the sear catches the hammer. Then it springs forward. It does act as a guide rail but the real retention comes from the receiver halves and the front bolt and hammer geometry.

Are you are saying body tolerances have no impact on mechanisms that have dedicated channels built in to the body or am I misinterpreting? The linkage arm and even the charging handle are caged by the receiver shells in their channels



Hammer wobble? I don't have any in all the 98s I work on and I polish the piss out of most of them. I'm removing material, if anything i should have a ton by what you are describing

Yes. Grab a charging handle and wiggle the hammer on the 98. Take the end cap off an A5 and use a wooden dowel to wiggle the hammer. Most of the time, the A5 will have less movement.

Polishing the receivers actually lets you tighten the screws down more on a 98 if you know what you’re doing. Improving tolerance.

Valve seating, it sits in the power tube. Cast plastic, again, not a body tolerance thing, the valve and body shells don't even touch

The receivers touch the power tube which touches the valve body. The power tube is plastic with a small amount of flex. If the tolerance is correct the receivers will compress the power tube slightly which seats the valve better against the O ring and the exterior portions of the valve that touch the power tube. Less air is displaced inside between the powertube and exterior of the valve body.

The sear also sits at a different angle, id suspect some changes because of that.

yep

If anything tippmann went out of their way to change things they didn't need to. Why use the same barrel threads for instance? Using new (yes I understand it's actually an older tippmann thread) threads would mean all those players with aftermarket barrels for the 98 could not use the same barrel and would likely be purchasing new ones. They also had to manufacture the barrel thread adaptor just to change the threads because the a5 threads are so fine they couldn't cast them. Power tube, valve, hell even the ASA they changed. And yes, i suspect they had good reasons for some of this but all? No way they already had the machine tools set up for stuff like the 98 ASA and chose to completely redesign it



I agree


My dude, they take air from the same spot. The tippmann design is extremely inefficient but you typically don't see a velocity hit when adding a cyclone because the system is already using a butt ton more air than it really needs. The air that powers the cyclone is air that has already come through the valve and is already headed for the barrel.

They don’t though. The 98 receives air from the port located in the posterior region of the valve. Air always and follows the path of least resistance so when the air is released from the valve it heads straight for the channels because they are wider and offer least resistance. Only when the pressure gradient changes and excess air starts heading towards the rear does it feed the 98 port.

The A5 port is more anterior lateral than the 98 and sits over a channel. The air is already heading in that direction and the hole in the powertube is larger and without a constricting nipple. Less resistance right? So the Cyclone on an A5 is going to get air faster and more of it because it’s closer to the shift in the pressure gradient when air starts to travel down the neck of the powertube.

They added the o ring in the A5 so they didn't have to cast the output "peg" into the a5 power tube like the 98 has. I'm sure that was a failure point in the casting if anything was going to go wrong. Not to mention, if the tolerances were so great, why did they even need the o ring? That section only sees pressure for a fraction of a second

Nope. It was by design.

They added the O ring not because of tolerance issues but because they added a dedicated port for the response trigger. If you look in the middle of the O ring channel there is a channel that feeds both ports. It was an improvement in design. It’s not really about pressure, it’s about volume, and that redesign did the trick.

Tippmann wants you to believe that it's "excess blowback" air but the only thing true there is that it's excess. The air the blows back the hammer to reset escapes around the hammer after the hammer o ring clears the power tube. It largely goes through the two halves of the clamshell but there's no way to collect it and send it to the cyclone

Yes, that is correct.

Cyclone(and RT) air is pulled from the air that is already headed towards the barrel. In fact after it is done powering the cyclone or RT it vents down the barrel

For the A5, yes. For the 98, no.

Some of it does, yes.

Remember though that when Ben tippmann left and the company changed hands they moved most of their production overseas. Taiwan, Malaysia, somewhere like that, I forget, some place really well known for great tight tolerances... Oh no wait, known for cheap production that's right.

Yes. Years after the A5 was released.



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I responded. I didn’t really have the time to do this but you seem to be heavily invested and I get that. Regardless, I sense agitation and that’s not my intent so I apologize in advance for any misinterpretation.

[The Jayster]

All I know is that about 15 years ago when the Phenom came out, some would shoot ropes without chops or breaks while others were blenders. I've also heard that being true with other Tippmann guns (don't know if it is though, just what I heard). I think it might give credence to the theory that you may get a smooth or rough Tippmann depending on the batch.

[Trbo323]

I responded. I didn't really have the time to do this but you seem to be heavily invested and I get that. Regardless, I sense agitation and that's not my intent so I apologize in advance for any misinterpretation.

It's fine. I have my opinions, you have yours. What you buy/work on/encourage others to use you have your reasons for. I'd rather discuss it than never learn anything

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