I played airsoft today

[uv_halo]

The OP and a lot of posts in this thread generally confirm my long-held belief that public (large enough that randos feel like they blend in) airsoft is not sustainable as, the cheating gets too prolific. Airsoft among friends or friends of friends, etc, will always be best, regardless of its competitive nature or not.

One thing I find interesting are the mentions of ballistics. Airsoft BBs are available in varying sectional densities, with the lowest being worse than paintballs, with the best actually being better (.0158 vs .0141). I'd run them through my full ballistics analysis but, I'd need dual chrono data for at least two variants of pellets (glossy vs matte finish). That being said, they're going to have a range of Ballistic Coefficients, which even if fired from the same gun, will offer different performance characteristics.

Another thing I find interesting is the FPS. At one commercially operated and insured field I went to, all of the airsoft guns were required to be at 300FPS or less. However, there is enough information on the internet that shows a lot more nuance, with different gun form factors / players being allowed to operate at different velocities. The interesting thing is that I see far fewer mentions of limiting or standardizing projectile weights within a game (i.e. a Sniper can shoot at 450FPS but, there is no correlation to weight).

I wonder how folks in this thread would interpret a field that allows Sniper players (presumably with a sniper rifle) to shoot heavier pellets at higher velocities than the other players. Is that LARPing?

[$L!mBo]

airsoft, by nature, is LARPing. all the guns and gear are replicas of real life counterparts. so, yes, allowing "snipers" to shoot heavier weight projectiles at higher FPS is still LARPing. its even a more obvious LARP since its leaning more into the real life idea of a sniper.

[uv_halo]

@$L!mBo
You managed to cram the entirety of a recreational activity down into two, sentences... Bravo (slow clap).... That being said, If you're playing a game of capture the flag, or elimination with airsoft equipment that is not LARPing as there is ZERO Role Playing elements. Paintball and Airsoft both, exist across a spectrum of LARP <-> Speedball (a game that is simply distilled to just snapshooting, laning and communicating). Somewhere in between would be scenario games, tactical games, etc. Equipment doesn't make LARPING unless it is directly tied to a role playing element (like a Medic's armband or, kit). Even plate carriers aren't so clear cut (even though you'd never see me wearing one) as maybe someone wants some extra (uneeded, just like bounce shirts) protection.

I strongly suspect that airsoft skews more towards the LARP however, that's almost to be expected after decades of paintball shunning anything to do with tactical or LARP (except in Scenario / Big Games where it's expected and exploited). Players interested in that stuff had to go somwhere so, along comes airsoft (over a decade later) and there you have it.

[latches109]

I just remember this fat guy in his 40s yelling all the things I hear in war movies and video games, and felt such 2nd hand embarrassment for him.

I played for the first time last Saturday with a friend and his kids. A late 30 something ref in full theater dress with a COD flag cape thinking he was in a movie. Everyone in the group was new except for a few (also in full dress with GoPros). No one knew how to play some random game he wanted. Proceeded to threaten to shoot players full auto rifle if they stood in a group. Game ended about 30 seconds after the start since no one understood what to do. The mil-sim weeniees were not the crowd for me, I prefer the "REF PAINT CHECK!" crowd.

[Cyberpyr8]

I wonder how folks in this thread would interpret a field that allows Sniper players (presumably with a sniper rifle) to shoot heavier pellets at higher velocities than the other players. Is that LARPing?

The group I played with did exactly this. Snipers could use the heavier rounds (.33 or .36?) but semi-autos could shoot normal rounds (.25 I think?) and heavy gunners could only shoot extremely light rounds. I was fine with it. But it did give me incentive to get to the back and take out the snipers. That's when it went south for me. They didn't like that I could get to the other end of the field and shoot them all in the back or side of their head. While they were totally fine being able to hide in the back and hit me with the heavier rounds. There were also rules for shotguns and pistols. Again, too many variables for me.

I think you should be able to shoot what you brought and how it is intended to be used. My group wouldn't let me run my AR at full auto. Why not? Some dumb rule they had. I guess they didn't want to get pelted with a bunch of shots. But it's not my fault if you brought a pistol to an AR fight! That's when it started to creep over into the larping arena for me.

Airsoft was the first time I actually saved a hostage though. I got the hostage after shooting my way through and when I got there I was like "What do we do?". I had never rescued a hostage in paintball! I preferred to just shoot the hostage and call it a day but they all frown on that. 😏

[uv_halo]

I don't get how the snipers could be butthurt over you flanking and taking them out, unless there was something in how the game was setup that was exploited. Imagine a game on a football field with one lengthwise side of the field populated with buildings, while the rest of the field is more open (like speedball but, fewer and more spread out cover). Snipers are at the far end from you, in the open end with good frontal cover. Their ability is neutralized by any opposition (i.e. you can't snapshoot with a bolt action) that gets into the buildings at their end of the field, and, since the buildings run the length, that is guaranteed to happen. If the game runner wanted to emphasize the snipers, they would set a rule like, "nobody can advance in the buildings farther than the 50" and maybe even give it some 'LARPy' explanation like 'because there's an IED there'). If you ran up and flanked them through the building, that would obviously be counter to how the game was run. That being said, if you weren't informed of such a rule that would be the fault of the game runner and even your teammates (if they saw you run in there and push up).

This reminds me of a game that Warplay Paintball used to run- It was a roughly rectangular field with teams starting at opposing ends, with attackers and defenders (and re-spawns with attackers respawning twice as often as the defenders). Describing the layout relative to an attacker's POV. Light/Medium Cover all the way to the 75yd
(yard distances are not litteral). At the centerline of the field, at the 75yd line there was a 8ft wide, 10tft long, bridge, with a one man guard post at the defenders end and to the left of the bridge. It was just handrails on the bridge, so no cover. The terrain layout (heavy brush and berms) afforded an experience much like trench warfare up the left side but, the outlet at the defender's side gave them the advantage on covering its length. The right side of the field was sparse cover and roughly symmetrical but, nobody can cross there (imaginary river) but, shooting across is fine. For the attackers to win, you had to bring the flag back across the bridge, this necessitates the attackers to suppress or eliminate the defenders enough that they cannot cover the flag. They explained the rules every time that game was played (except for when the teams switch sides). I found this game a lot of fun (each of their 'fields' were setup with this level of detail).

That same park even combined a few fields to run a hostage rescue scenario (where the bodyguards start at one end with the VIP, and have to escort the VIP to a structure at the 75yd line. They allowed one of the 'terrorists' to start at the bodyguards 25yd line. That one terrorist could try and engage the president or, let the body guards slip past and then hit them from behind when they bodyguards engage the other terrorists. The VIP was a ref in a safety vest and they had to be shot on the vest (to discourage headshots).

One thing that cracks me up in general from several folks in this thread is complaints about LARPy terms used or required on the field. How many of them have taken time to explain to new players what the Dorito or the snake are on the field, or stressed the need for communication on the field. Milsim or tactical paintball have the same kind of interests- briefly communicating what is happening for the benefit of the rest of your team. If you don't use the right language folks would get frustrated in either case. Now if it's like calling everyone sarge, or captain or, private that's pure LARPiness (except for Medic, or other folks who have functional roles).

[vijil]

It's the unwritten rules that sound frustrating.

One thing paintball generally does well is having clear expectations, because we're treating it more like a sport and assuming people will try to exploit the rules. Larpers don't think that way. And that's fine - you just need to be aware.

In paintball, I've always liked the idea of classes. So for every ten people on the field you might allow a max of one "sniper", the only one allowed FS, and one "heavy", the only one allowed any kind of ramping or auto and a much higher carry limit. Everyone else is h+1 or equivalent. And then, again per 10 players, someone as a designated medic who counts as a respawn point - but once they're out they're out.

When people got used to that you could add more - runners who are the only players allowed to capture objectives. That sort of thing. And then combine that with interesting game design.

And none of it milsim. Wear your speed gear, bring your lv2, whatever. Advanced woodsball.

But nobody wants to do that. I've noticed that paintballers generally don't have the imagination or cognitive capacity to handle that kind of thing. I get that people just want to play with what they bring, and give themselves every possible advantage in terms of firepower. IMO that ruins the game, especially for new players. That's part of why I got bored and stopped playing for the most part. But I don't see airsoft as a good replacement.

[Impactfour]

It's a bit off tangent, but there's a tournament series near me that assigns some paint limit per game to each team. A few of my buddies who play tournaments keep suggesting that I join them with my phantom so they can have extra paint. Your comment might have convinced me to see how serious they are about this idea and start brainstorming strategies if so.

[vijil]

No it's a good idea.

And it's good to see that different fields with their own tournament series are running their own game styles. I don't think we should settle on NXL style TDM, because I don't think NXL style paintball is anywhere near "done" as a game design.

I'll modify my post above a bit - I have actually played some pretty interesting woodsball games with interesting objectives.

[iamthelazerviking]

I'm taking a step back from paintball for a while mostly due to how far I need to travel, and the costs. It's just gotten to be a lot to deal with. But there's a popular outdoor airsoft field very close and I keep thinking that could scratch the itch to run around and shoot people.

But then I re-read this post, and look at their pictures and while theria good mix of young and old players, 99% are in military LARP gear and I just know how it would go...LOL.

Who knows I might still try it out, but I'd definitely look out of place and probably be called a speedsoft guy since I wouldn't be Seal team 6 tactical sneaky boy.

[Cyberpyr8]

You should try it. Maybe your group there will be cool and not have so many problems like many of the airsoft groups have. Worst case, you go shoot them all up and get kicked out!

[nnolt89]

They didn’t like your m81 woodland pants and jacket ?

How is it that not serious enough ?

[cheapguitarscheapthrills]

I have talked to airsoft kids before that are at the paintball field I frequent (a lot in the area do both) some neck beards that are airsoft players will get mad if you don't have the right camo for the right country and the right load out so say if you were dressed up like a German world war II soldier you need an mp40 or kar98 otherwise people are going to get their web gear in a bunch. So stupid, if I were going to go play airsoft I would intentionally wear the brightest colors possible

[Cyberpyr8]

I think a Hawaiian shirt would be a must have and would certainly piss them off! My new EMF camo would give them an aneurism.

[TF_Aloha]

They'll be fine with a Hawaiian shirt as long as you say you're LARPing as CIA.

[Impactfour]

I think it's worth mentioning that when I played airsoft at my local field I was wearing my coogi sweater jersey which is about as colorful as anything can be and not a single player complained. That being said I think my local field tends to have the full range of airsoft kids. Some go with a full matching setup, but a few weekend ago a dude went on the field with a lightsaber and a younger fella uses a riot shit he built at home that's about as big as he is.

While there's definitely a bunch of dudes that take shit too seriously. I think there's a lot of dudes just getting outdoors, being goofy and running around in the woods having fun and that's pretty neat.

[Laserlips]

I've played both a lot. At the end of the day they are essentially the same game, with very minor differences. If you're good at one, you'll be just as good at the other. I guess I'd say paintball is more balanced. With the exception of first strikes and flatlines it's not like a better gun gives you more range. If you are a decent player. you can get some elims with the cheapest crap out there as long as the paint is okay.

Airsoft is kind of different. Your equipment makes a big difference. But on the bright side, the ammo is better in every way except it requires a lot of trust between players. I've seen a lot of cheating in my day for BOTH sports. But I've also seen a lot more good, fun, honorable opponents.

Im starting to think paintball is more beginner friendly. not because of the gear, but more so the environment. I've seen a lot of small kids break down and cry while airsofting. It's kind of crazy now that I think about it. I've seen lots of people lock up, run, hide, or get tunnel vision during both games. But only during airsoft have I seen youngsters experience genuine terror. I've now learned its best to just stop playing and take them out of that mental zone. I'm sure we've all run into at least one.

I'll always remember my first paintball game. and the nameless dude who gave me almost 2 bags of paint so I could keep playing. (mans gun died, he was going home) Because of that dude, I always give out my excess paint to rentals.

[Pumps4ever]

I wanted to play airsoft... but then went to SC village and saw the type of players that were there...

The main difference for me is the people who are playing each sport...

I largely like paintball people = I get along with them well, usually have a great deal in common and have epic times getting together having fun...

When I went to SC village and actually saw the Air Soft players there I realized very fast that it was not the same crowd as Paintball.

So that stopped me in my tracks from wanting to play airsoft.

Plus as someone in the tread mentioned I did not want to get into arguments with teenage B-Boys about who got shot first..

Paintball or Nothing for me..