Bad Paint and Barrel Kits = Benefit to Shorter Inserts?

[Cdn_Cuda]

So last time out playing we were using ye old crap field paint and any marker I had using a Freak barrel kit was basically unusable. Balls would just stack inside the insert, likely due to misshapenness, as I did check my inserts and they were okay. This happened with a pump and a cocker, so not isolated to one marker. I was running two Nova markers as well (N1 and N4) and both had no issue. The N4 was using a large bore one-piece barrel and the N1 was using the standard Nova inserts and shot well the entire day. So what I am curious about is with the crappy uneven paint, has anyone else found that shorter inserts actually work better than longer?

I had tested all the marked beforehand at home with some decent Canadian Tire paint and had no issues with any of the markers. They chrono'd just fine and shot well. I haven't had a chance to do a "biopsy" of the markers that failed, hopefully have that done this week.

And I know I there are freedummy- style detents to use. I had one or two but didn't bring them to the field.

[Ecapnation]

If paint isn't making it out of the barrel that sounds like a larger issue likely slipping past the detent and double feeding

[Cdn_Cuda]

I experienced it with on pre-2 cocker with no detents as well. Have shot a good amount of rounds through that marker without any issue at home. I could have been short stroking it a little. It just seems odd to have the same issue on three different markers with three different shooters, especially having chrono'd all the markers at home the day before. But chromo'ing isn't shooting under fire, so different than in a game.

[Ecapnation]

Sounds like roll out into a tight bore barrel got it

[TencenT]

RedLeader sells ones similar. Used them for the first time this last weekend and it's far better than using scotch tape on the inserts/barrel imo.
https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...barrel-detents

[StaticShocked]

These are amazing. I use them on the pump and the autococker with flawless results.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Hands down the best solution slight overbore and use these for consistency. I run a .681 one piece barrel that the entire length of the barrel is a control bore. So imagine a (14” freak bore) zero paint breakage issues. If I do get paint that fits a lil tight I just remove the detent ring but that is very rare I need to do that.

Slight overbore and these detent rings will 100% solve Your issue. They are cheap and durable. Buy a bunch and hand them out to friends.

[iamthelazerviking]

I've often heard that either short insert just to stop rollouts OR a detent of some kind plus larger bore barrel will be the most forgiving

[RichM]

I would agree with Ecap that there's probably something else going on if you're seeing two balls in the barrel, it's going to be a double-feed issue. Likely small paint slipping past the ball detents... not sure what style of detents and hopper type you were using, but I've found that some cocker style detents can be a bit 'soft' and don't have enough strength to prevent double-feeds, especially if the paint is on the smaller side. It shows up more on the cocker/sniper platforms because it's possible to hold the breech open a bit longer (slower pump stroke or trigger pull).

[Cdn_Cuda]

Gravity hoppers on everything except my upgraded Emek. Detents are standard cocker detents, except on the pre-2K which has no detents. Paint was larger than .679, but thinking it's a bit football shaped instead of round, so when turned sideway get jammed in an insert and causes an issue. Next ball is fed and jammed. When cleaning later I had a filed paint ball jam my rotor and I have to use my finger to unjam it.

I have a lot of paint left over so I'll can experiment with it when I have time.

[RichM]

I'm always surprised how much force a gravity hopper can put on a detent when you get a good ball stack... I was having issues on a couple of my pumps with multiple double-feeding, had to switch out the detents and problem solved (same style, just a stiffer spring). I've found a fair bit of variance between the cocker style detents with respect to spring stiffness. Also I think you are right, out-of-round paint may be a big part of the problem, if you get an oblong ball sitting the wrong way in the breech it has a good chance of getting pushed past the detent by the pressure of the ball stack, and you end up with a double feed. The reason why I don't think it's a case of a ball getting stuck in the insert is that if you had a ball sitting in the barrel insert very tightly, and you fired, it would either shoot out or it would burst... I don't think it would still be there when the next one was chambered assuming the marker fired. But I could definitely be wrong... I'll be interested to see what you find when you do some testing.

[The Jayster]

I'm positively having issues with field paint wherever I go. I use a ball sizer and within the same bag, I have paint that needs to be forcefully pushed through the 0.684 hole, while there's some that will easily fall through the 0.681 or even 0.678 hole. A few weeks ago I used the smallest PWR insert I had, a 0.680, and no paintball could stay put in my NX-1. It would even fall out as soon as the gun was pointing slightly below a straight level. Had to buy a 0.675 insert to solve the issue.

But more to the point, whenever I severely underbore when shooting pumps (to make sure I don't get roll-outs), I get wild velocity fluctuations. When I use semis, my go-to bore size is 0.685 and I started to notice the same fluctuations. I can hit, say, 285, 280, 278, 290, then 259, then 300, back to 284, 267, etc. I was also getting an inordinate amount of barrel breaks in my Emek, which was very uncharacteristic. I finally figured it out: there's so much discrepancy in size that whenever a really 'large' paintball is fired, it drags against the very tight bore and exits at a much lower velocity; whereas a 'tiny' paintball will fly right out at high velocity.

During my last outing I was using my LV2, but instead of the usual 0.685 insert I really overbored at 0.689. The paint size was still all over the place, but this time I didn't get crazy outliers over the chrono. Thus, this is what I plan to do:

-Overbore by a good margin with semis (0.689);
-Use the stock Nova barrel with the smaller 2.5" inserts (I plan to order 0.675 and 0.679) to prevent roll-outs in my NX-1. Those inserts should be short enough to minimize drag for larger balls;
-I upgraded to 2x3 duro 70 o-rings in my main Phantom which has ASP detents; very small paintballs don't roll-out even when I shake that thing forcefully; I'll then use a large insert (0.687) for the Phreak barrel. Also has the side benefit of bringing my velocity way down (even with a weaker spring combo and the TPC almost fully back-out I was getting in the 290s... which also made the TPC move around).

Speaking of bad paint... I have it from a reliable source that things may soon get even worse before they get better (if they ever do).

[Chuck E Ducky]

https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...barrel-detents

Just get the Redleader detent ring and slightly overbore that’s all you need for anything cocker threaded.

For the Phantom put larger or stiffer duro orings in the ASP mod with a slight overbore.

Almost all modern markers have built in detents slightly overbore. Let the detents do their job. If you break paint in a modern electro / mech you need new detents.

Paint is way too inconsistent to bore match today. Paint manufacturers are catering to electros that throw 3-4 pods a match that have functional detents and eyes.

[TencenT]

I disagree, I think plainly they're making low quality paint.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Paint is location dependent. This year on the east coast I have been getting paint that flys true and breaks nicely. It’s just very inconsistent in size however it’s a full ball so less air more mass give you a true flying ball. The older paint flew better because it was heavier. With the detent ring and a slight overbore bore I have zero issues. Also If you shake your paint up it will fly straighter. The fill will settle to one side if it sits long enough. By shaking it up it distributes the mass that would otherwise sit on one side of the ball causing it to curve especially if any rotation is applied. I just got a bag of lumpy paint that looks like crap. It’s lumpy and inconsistent but shoots lasers and breaks amazingly. It’s so full of fill it looks like it’s ready to burst at the seams.

Low quality paint is cheaper to manufacture bottom line price dictates profit margins for fields and paint companies. I bet there are very few fields if any that sell more premium paint over rec grade. When multiple types are offered. Sometimes the premium sits so long the rec shoots better anyway.

[Chappy]

“Also If you shake your paint up it will fly straighter. “
I find this incredibly important. I always fondle my ball sack before I open it and fill my pods. Makes the day so much better . Seriously tho rolling your bag of paint around in your hands for 30 seconds before you open it is invaluable, it cannot be overstated.

[Myrkul]

I actually think there is something to the shorter style inserts being more forgiving on shit paint.

Purely anicdotally, but a few years ago when the paint was really bad at my field, I started using a stock Bob Long Defiant Barrel that took the 3/4" OTP inserts. Actual bore size was like 0.691. I had BMC fabrication make me some additional inserts for it in 0.678, 0.680, and 0.684. That barrel managed to shoot some absolute dog shit paint absolutely flawless regardless of the marker. Sniper, Defiant One in ramping at 13 BPS, tracer, autococker, it didn't matter. If that barrel was on it, it was shooting lasers if it was HK army Level 3, valken, or GI field grade.

Like an idiot I sold it with the gun it was match annoed to, don't miss the marker much, but I definitely regret letting that barrel go.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Let me check my pile O barrels I might still have one. I know I had a chrome/ gloss black one at some point.

[Myrkul]

Awesome! Just let me know!!!

[iamthelazerviking]

BMC said he can make the sizers in any size and bore barrels for them, but that brass is crazy expensive and that the customer would probably need to purchase the material

[iamthelazerviking]

If paint is good enough to run through just a 5" Freak insert barrel, then awesome.

If it's so bad that its causing wild velocity swings or breaks, just throw in a 691 (or bigger) insert and then depend on the detents on an open bolt, or printed anti rollout fingers on a closed bolt.

Regardless of the barrel back/insert length, bad paint is bad paint so as we're seeing, a big over bore helps this so as long as there's minimal intervention to keeping the ball from rolling out (doesn't matter the marker type). Does it matter if it's 2 rubber detents in an Emek, or laser cut rollout fingers in a sniper, vs a 2"-3" sizer?

[Cdn_Cuda]

Please join me as I play with my balls!

These green “balls” are my field paint. The first bore is 0.684, the next two are both 0.679s. (Going left to right). As you can see, the paint varies significantly. The ball in the bore of the left started at the top of the tube and slowly slid down. The other two aren’t moving, even if I press down on the ball.

[Cdn_Cuda]

Due to the lack of roundness of the ball, I took the smaller ball out of the last insert and rotated it and the ball would no longer fit in the bore even while pressing down.

[Cdn_Cuda]

I also have some Canadian Tire paint I bought recently that is surprising not too bad. The paint is much more uniform and performs how it ought to.

The paint dropped down the larger bore, as one would expect.

[Cdn_Cuda]

So circling back to the field paint, I grabbed a random handful of balls to do a blow test. In both cases I could blow 2 balls through the 0.679 backs, but the third ball in both cases jammed and would not blow through.

The same test with the 0.684 back had the same result. Out of three balls, one got stuck. Swapping to an Empire 0.685 back all balls would blow throw and some balls just dropped straight through.

[RichM]

I've had similar results from that field paint (I also use the Canadian Tire paint for testing and it's surprising good for what it is). I have a ball sizer gauge and what I usually end up doing is taking a handful of balls, and I use the size of insert that corresponds to the hole in the ball gauge that none of them can get through (I kind of roll them around in the gauge to try various cross sections on each ball). I would be interested to see what happens if you take that 0.679 insert and jam a ball into it so you can't blow it out, then put it in the barrel and fire it. If the ball shoots out or bursts in the barrel it would mean that you were likely experiencing double-feeding. If the ball stays stuck in the barrel after you fire, then the balls might be getting stuck in the insert as the marker is firing.

[Cdn_Cuda]

RichM - Good idea. I can wedge a ball in the back of a insert and see what chaos I can make. I really do think this is what happened on the field. I spent a good portion of the day before chrono'ing all my markers getting ready to hit the field, so timing issues should been present during that testing. I do know some of the inserts have more than 2 balls jammed into them on the field day.

[RichM]

Yeah I think this might be the best way to test it... I'm very curious to see what happens. I'm sure your timing is setup properly, if it was double-feeding it may just be a function of your normal trigger pull, where the bolt is held back just long enough to let a couple of balls through if the detent is not able to do it's job due to a soft detent spring and the small / oblong paint.

[Cdn_Cuda]

And for further proof of just how crappy the filed paint is, I grabbed a 0.687 stainless insert and if the ball went through on the wrong angle I could not blow it through the insert, but is rotated another way, it would easy blow through. This is using the same 8 paintballs to maintain some measure of consistency…. Or in this case consistent inconsistency.

And in the case of my Nova N1, it ran an 0.679 insert the entire day and my buddy using had no complaints all day. I did try to blow through my sample rounds but could only get one or two balls through the control bore.

So the next step will be trying a few of my markers and shooting the crap field paint with a standard freak insert and then with a Nova barrel and insert and see how they handle paint and if the longer or shorter control bore has an effect on poor paint.

[TencenT]

Basically my experience with the HK paint, if it actually stays in the barrel is entirely dependent on the orientation of the paintball. I don't mind the FPO rules I just wish paint worth buying was available at the fields.

[iamthelazerviking]

So a 693 one piece + way to stop rollouts will be the winner with junk field paint. At that point I don't see any use for inserts of any size or length since paint is still too random

[SignOfZeta]

I'm positively having issues with field paint wherever I go. I use a ball sizer and within the same bag, I have paint that needs to be forcefully pushed through the 0.684 hole, while there's some that will easily fall through the 0.681 or even 0.678 hole. A few weeks ago I used the smallest PWR insert I had, a 0.680, and no paintball could stay put in my NX-1. It would even fall out as soon as the gun was pointing slightly below a straight level. Had to buy a 0.675 insert to solve the issue.

But more to the point, whenever I severely underbore when shooting pumps (to make sure I don't get roll-outs), I get wild velocity fluctuations. When I use semis, my go-to bore size is 0.685 and I started to notice the same fluctuations. I can hit, say, 285, 280, 278, 290, then 259, then 300, back to 284, 267, etc. I was also getting an inordinate amount of barrel breaks in my Emek, which was very uncharacteristic. I finally figured it out: there's so much discrepancy in size that whenever a really 'large' paintball is fired, it drags against the very tight bore and exits at a much lower velocity; whereas a 'tiny' paintball will fly right out at high velocity.

During my last outing I was using my LV2, but instead of the usual 0.685 insert I really overbored at 0.689. The paint size was still all over the place, but this time I didn't get crazy outliers over the chrono. Thus, this is what I plan to do:

-Overbore by a good margin with semis (0.689);
-Use the stock Nova barrel with the smaller 2.5" inserts (I plan to order 0.675 and 0.679) to prevent roll-outs in my NX-1. Those inserts should be short enough to minimize drag for larger balls;
-I upgraded to 2x3 duro 70 o-rings in my main Phantom which has ASP detents; very small paintballs don't roll-out even when I shake that thing forcefully; I'll then use a large insert (0.687) for the Phreak barrel. Also has the side benefit of bringing my velocity way down (even with a weaker spring combo and the TPC almost fully back-out I was getting in the 290s... which also made the TPC move around).

Speaking of bad paint... I have it from a reliable source that things may soon get even worse before they get better (if they ever do).

Have you tried tape?