BBC Article: Paintball Olympic Sport

[Trbo323]

Yes, other sports use guns- real steel and airguns*- but paintball uses them against other people, not just static targets. The sport is generally seen as an "American thing", and to all too many countries, America's "pro gun culture" is not something they want to emulate.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Doc.

I have to disagree with this. There are a TON of combat sports already in the Olympics, sports where at the core the discipline was developed with the intent to harm other humans. Paintball was developed as a game first and foremost. Hell look at fencing, massive changes had to be made to it just to make it not lethal. Skeet and trap shooting are still there and the reason they stopped using live birds was not because they needed a thousand birds to shoot at but because the amount of gore on the field became enough that audiences didn't like it. It wasn't that they were shooting the birds it's the aftermath that made the change to clay pigeons

-Agree and disagree. The biggest thing paintball needs is a huge public ad campaign. Nobody advertises paintball, except in Facebook, and even then only TO paintballers. The sport needs a huge ad run that gets (back) out to the 'people at large'.

My common example was those "got milk?' commercials. No one producer paid for those, they were just "promote milk in general" ads.

An Olympic campaign- especially for the first year- would be huge. As above, I strongly doubt it would ever happen- we'll see Olympic Hotdog Eating Contests first- but if it did, it would indeed be a big shot in the arm for the sport.

Doc.

This has kind of started. I've been watching some pro matches of late and the NXL now has outside sponsors sponsoring bunkers on the field. The sponsor gets their name and logo on the bunker (2 bunkers, one for each side) and when the commentators are taking about where players are they then have to say "the hertz bunker" etc. at first I didn't think much of it but I realized that was an easy way for an outside company to get their name mentioned a lot. It's kind of smart, brings in outside money for sure

The biggest problem with televising paintball is simply that it's not viewer friendly. It's difficult to get into it, especially for people unfamiliar with the sport. If you watch any match on YT, it's almost impossible to follow all the moves in the beginning while there is 4-5 players on each team. You're going off by sportscasters commentary almost entirely. Its not until some of the players have been eliminated that the act of filming the action becomes clear and coherent — and viewer friendly.

It's not like other sports where you are following one focal point: the ball. Or in sports without a ball, you still have a single focal point. In paintball you have essentially 10 focal points in a 5v5 format. And it's all very fast paced. And the way we film it has to evolve with above the ground shots from drones and maybe cameras on top of bunkers that cover 180*. Also picture in picture modes with action tie ins (which would require the production team to be skilled in showing different angles of action sequences) it's not impossible but it's most definitely a much more involved and expensive production proposition.

This has started though. Like I said above I've been watching some current stuff and even if you go back 2 years the camera footage is much different. I encourage you to go try it. I wouldn't say it's perfect but it certainly is much better. They use an overhead drone a lot so you can see the whole field and often mark the bunkers players are in so you still know they are there even if the drone can't see them from it's angle. The overhead is great because it gives you that sense of what's happening strategically on the whole field then they go look at individual or a few players and then back to the drone.

The commentating, that could be improved. Matty Marshall does do a good job, but yes if it were being done for an Olympics audience you would really have to explain basics better than he typically does. He does great if you are a player already and often has a guest commentator in the booth with him so he sometimes ends up having to talk about a tangent they drag him into but overall he is good it would just need some tweaking for a broader audience.

Happening or not I don't see how it would be bad for the sport. More exposure is more exposure. To use the example of curling from above again, how many of us would know it even existed if not for the Olympics? I doubt I would, I certainly have never seen a curling.... Arena? In person.

To all those who say it would be boring to watch, probably, to you now, but think back to 16 year old you just getting into paintball. Man I would be glued to that TV yelling for team USA, I'd be inviting my friends over, players or not to watch with me and to me that would be the best part of getting paintball in the Olympics.

Yes it could be boring, repetitive, have cheaters and unrealistic amounts of money for the beginning player, but so does every sport in the Olympics already. And yet, there's teams of curlers, indoor soccer players, hand ball players and synchronized swimmers that all got started by being inspired by something they saw and decided to try that sport.















Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[the_matrix_guy]

That’s good to know. Admittedly, I haven’t watched a single match from 2010 or later. I just lost complete interest in the pro scene. But I’m intrigued now just to see how its evolved

[vijil]

I'm going to comment on the "it's impossible to film" aspect, because I have some experience and training in this area. I used to do shot composition for kids TV. Not quite the same but the principles of storytelling on film don't change.

It is *absolutely possible* to film paintball in a way that is very watchable if it's post produced. Perfect example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A4Z2m53zV0

It's MUCH harder, but still possible, to do it live. Key points:

1. Avoid side on shooting shots. These are for posters, not video. Instead, try as much as possible to get over the shoulder shots which get both ends of a gunfight.

1b. Move the cameras further away, and zoom in. This makes it easier to frame the shooter and the target in shot and makes them look closer to each other. Hormesis 1v1 did this very well.

2. Forget the "sideline cameras" aspect of filming. This is a relic of traditional sports. Instead, rotate your 180 (aka line of action) by 90 degrees, and make ONE endzone your main camera location with a few cameras spread along the line and corners. Proper sports cameras with 50x zoom if possible. This way almost by default you're getting the best angles. This will give much better angles of dorito and snake action, create a sense of attacking vs defending teams, and makes it much easier to respect the 180 while doing so. It also will make everything much easier to follow. If you're remotely competent as a production crew, you wont need cameras at the other end other than for instant replay angles. Teams switch ends each point, so you get both.

It's worth scoping out the main gunfight lanes and positioning your endzone comeras to see down those alleys.

2b. Don't bother trying to show everything! You'd think that Battle Royale games would be impossible to watch because there are a dozen teams running around, and yet thanks to streamers we know it's one of the most entertaining things to watch. The key is to ignore most of what's going on. So choose one team or player to mainly focus on for each point. Show the tactical situation from a high camera, sure, but don't bother trying to highlight everyone all the time. It sure helps if you're playing an objective format, but we can't all be that lucky.

3. Use a desyncronized feed. By that I mean: cuts are live, footage is a couple seconds delayed. What it allows is that I as the editor can see a hit or some action, cut to it, and THEN the viewer sees the moment happen. It requires buffering all cameras by a couple seconds and needs to be something that can be toggled.

All of these can be done without extra personnel or admin requirements (unlike kill trackers etc). Just point 3 requires a slightly specialized production trailer and a *tiny* bit of training.

Once that's all sorted, you can move on to the "nice to have" option stuff:

- clear masks, mandated. No tint, no mirror, and mandated perfectly clear lowers. So what if they're hard plastic, everyone is in the same boat.
- wireless gun cams on every player's hopper or gun. The tech absolutely does exist. But *don't* generally use these during the live action - they are best as instant replay views.
- Player trackers built into markers so we can see where people are pointing and their location
- kill trackers etc.

But again, all of those are hard. They should only happen once the easy stuff is in place and the budget can justify it.

And that's before I even get into how the game design itself needs to be rethought from first principles.

[DocsMachine]

The biggest problem with televising paintball is simply that it’s not viewer friendly.

-Thing is, it doesn't necessarily have to be.

We're fixating a bit too much on the idea of making a complete game, start to finish, both watchable and understandable to an outside viewer. We don't need to do that. We simply need to present it as a fun and enjoyable sport.

Think more along the lines of a commercial. You don't want to show the entire movie, of course, you want to show enough interesting scenes to make somebody interested in going to the theater and seeing it. (Or streaming it, or buying the DVD or game cartridge, whatever.)

After all, the idea here is to get people out on the fields, not just have them watch a compete tourney series. A "highlight reel" of good game scenes, some between-game fooling around in the staging area, a few quick beauty shots of some quality gear, that's all you really need.

I have to disagree with this. There are a TON of combat sports already in the Olympics, sports where at the core the discipline was developed with the intent to harm other humans.

-Yessir, and they've all been in the Olympics since the days of actual swordfighting and dueling with live pistols. Fencing in particular was seen as a gentlemen's sport- that of Nobles and aristocrats.

Today is a very different world- the shooting games are only kept in by essentially being grandfathered in. There have been more than a few countries where the Olympian could not legitimately practice, because merely owning a single-shot .22 was far too legally difficult.

I reiterate that the Olympic people- few of whom are American- would simply dismiss the sport entirely simply on the fact it A, uses "guns", and B, uses those guns on other people.

Skateboarding is in the olympics:

-Huh. Shows ya what I know.

But that's also a point in this discussion: Clearly, if I hadn't known skateboarding was in the Olympics, it wasn't advertised or 'pushed' well. And that's an issue- the Olympics have a limited bandwidth of TV time, and a huge number of games and events to show. Paintball would likely be front-and-center the first year it's run, but relegated to the back every year after that.

Doc.

[vijil]

The Olympics themselves are dying. When they reach out and ask paintball to join, I think we'll know they're doomed....

[Trbo323]

But that's also a point in this discussion: Clearly, if I hadn't known skateboarding was in the Olympics, it wasn't advertised or 'pushed' well. And that's an issue- the Olympics have a limited bandwidth of TV time, and a huge number of games and events to show. Paintball would likely be front-and-center the first year it's run, but relegated to the back every year after that.

Doc.

And? What's wrong with that? Why is the measure of success that our sport must be prominent and pushed to the front forever?

There's tons of sports in the Olympics that nobody knows about but if you go search on YouTube you can find any of them. As far as I know they are all filmed. I don't think there's enough hours in the day for any one station to broadcast everything but it seems like it is all filmed anyway.

Here's some sports that I know are in the Olympics that people may not know about

BMX racing (fun to watch as well)
I forget what it's called but it's like ping pong but with a soccer ball, has a weird shaped table
For that matter, ping pong (table tennis)
Competitive walking
Long track speed skating
Triathlon, and if you knew that existed, there's a separate biathlon
The triple jump (part of track and field)
Tug of war

Actually here, just look at this link, scroll anywhere on it and I bet you'll find a sport you didn't know was in the Olympics

https://www.olympics.com/en/sports/




















Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[PBGunny]

Gotta be better than Break Dancing...
Just saying.

[Trbo323]

Gotta be better than Break Dancing...
Just saying.

Lol! Solid point

To be fair though, that whole situation made it so now basically everyone knows break dancing is in the Olympics and tons of people went, "hell, I'm better than that"

I'm also willing to bet the next Olympics has much more coverage for break dancing because of all the attention it got.

If that's what it takes to get some attention on paintball, you can dress me up as a clown and I'll run the gauntlet just so the next Olympics paintball gets some decent coverage. Again, it would focus attention on our sport and I think it could really use that at this point

Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[flyweightnate]

I think vijil had some key ideas on angles and cuts to "make it make sense"; some of the new AI processing could do a fantastic job of stabilizing barrel/ mask cams to make for smooth first person views. I struggle to watch GoPro videos because of the bounce but this is just a technology question.

The other issue, though, is that even in play it's hard to track the paint. A separate camera system that works in UV or IR, and paint that phosphoresces to match that separate system, would allow an overlay to show lanes and snapshots clearly. This would be a HUGE undertaking, technologically, because it would have to involve shell/ fill formulations and a secondary lighting system, but if successful, the average joe at home could watch the game from home with a much better feel for how the players are using space/ denying space.

And, if the fill glows, pretty hard to wipe that nice splat away.

But yes, it's a hard sport to track on camera - like watching biathlon, you're just kind of like "well I guess they got the target". And it's a complicated idea at first, especially with flags (that are typically secondary to the eliminations). But professionals can work around that, and it would be cool to see. And stock class would be a great "equalizer" across economies, while standard 5 man would make the kids happy.

[vijil]

It wouldn't be that hard - 8k cameras, a protected shell colour to match the paint colour, and some post processing would do it. Key would be that it only shows the streams when they're in motion and doesn't highlight that colour when it's not.

However the ultimate system isn't too far off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumetric_capture and https://live4d-vv.github.io/

It's full volumetric video. Where instead of capturing angles, the cameras are feeding into a (ridiculously high powered) AI system which converts everything into a fully textured and lit 3D scene. You can then place cameras wherever the heck you want, whenever you want before or after the fact.

It allows those matrix style bullet time shots, would allow every ball in flight to be fully tracked, and even allow completely automated reffing. The bonus is that you could watch the game in VR, walking around the field while the game is going.

The tech is nascent though, and nobody has made it work real time. But it will happen. Might take a decade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLWSmctKbKU

[Axel]

If it's any kind of dream, it's a pipe dream

[DocsMachine]

And? What's wrong with that? Why is the measure of success that our sport must be prominent and pushed to the front forever?

-Because the sport gains nothing at all from being in the Olympics... except advertising/promotion. That's literally the only reason we'd want it there in the first place.

But if it's not at least occasionally being broadcast (IE, advertised) then even that benefit is lost.

Doc.

[Trbo323]

-Because the sport gains nothing at all from being in the Olympics... except advertising/promotion. That's literally the only reason we'd want it there in the first place.

But if it's not at least occasionally being broadcast (IE, advertised) then even that benefit is lost.

Doc.

Ok, so the risk/downside is everything stays as it is now

The potential upside is paintball gets promoted and more attention

Remind me again why this idea is a bad thing?

Idk what kind of an up side you would expect besides promotion, free markers for underprivileged orphans? ANY promotion would be more than the sport gets now.

I agree that it likely won't happen, not anytime soon anyway but also everyone seems to think the Olympics hasn't accepted paintball in. As far as I've ever seen and been told nobody has ever tried to get it in.

The NXL is the logical organization to try but I have to ask, what would the NXL gain by putting paintball in the Olympics? If they were trying to expand into different countries it might make sense but they pretty much have a corner on professional paintball in the US so there's really no benefit for them. I've always felt the NXL is a little short sighted anyway so why put in the work to grow the whole sport if that's the case?
















Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[vijil]

FWIW, I think the Olympics would make more sense than the X Games. Paintball is not an extreme sport.

[Trbo323]

FWIW, I think the Olympics would make more sense than the X Games. Paintball is not an extreme sport.

I guess that depends on your definition of extreme.

The first x games had the very extreme sport of... Canoe racing

I'd still give the x games a shot. They are generally pretty good at making sports more viewer friendly. I actually would expect that they NOT go with standard 5v5 speedball. Imagine if they decided to go with 10v10 attack and defend set up like counterstrike. It would be instantly understandable to a large number of people, the 2 points for the bomb would be easy focal points for the cameras and it would be something different for the regular paintballers.

That said, I don't know that there are any team sports currently in the x games. Not like I've watched it in years. I see a few highlights and think, "huh. They are still doing that?" But hell, if they picked up paintball I would watch just to see what they came up with





Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[vijil]

Canoe racing is both dangerous and badass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTcNl1naxw and in the olympics already!

[SignOfZeta]

-Because the sport gains nothing at all from being in the Olympics... except advertising/promotion. That's literally the only reason we'd want it there in the first place.

But if it's not at least occasionally being broadcast (IE, advertised) then even that benefit is lost.

Doc.

Man, this “grow the sport” thing dies hard…

The ONLY reason someone would want paintball to be in the Olympic Games is to promote paintball? Do you think that running and jumping and bobsledding and skateboarding are in the Games to grow those sports?

The point of having something in the Olympic Games is so you can see who has the best individual or team at that sport on a global scale. If you set an Olympic record you set THE record. How do we know it’s the fastest donkey punch in the world? Because we invited every donkey puncher on earth to the event. I hate the Olympics and pretty much all sports but even I understand that.

As with skateboarding, the games need skaters and paintballers more than skaters and paintballers need the games. Skating and paintballing are great as they are. We know this because it feels amazing doing them.

Without relevant sports the games relevance is reduced. They’re drowning in drugged athletes, pervert coaches, and corrupt administrators as they tour around the world pissing off the locals and destroying the local economies/environment. I’m not so sure the Games as we’ve known them since the 20th century will survived into the 22nd.

[vijil]

Agree.

If the Olympics were to have a permanent location in the Greek islands or something, and clear out the corruption (zero chance) then maybe I'd be more enthusiastic.

As it is they're just an enrichment scheme for a bunch of old pervs.

[DocsMachine]

Remind me again why this idea is a bad thing?

-Never said it was. I was asked why it'd be an issue if it wasn't well-advertised during the events being televised, and I replied that it'd likely be relegated to the mostly-unwatched stuff like the aforementioned tug-of-war. At which point, what's the benefit for us?

ANY promotion would be more than the sport gets now.

-Exactly my point. The first time PB is included, it'll get extra attention, but in the following years, it'll get less and less. I 100% agree that any is better than none, but it's worth arguing that any effort spent getting the sport into the Olympics, may be better spent elsewhere.

Man, this “grow the sport” thing dies hard…

-And since literally no one is promoting the sport at all right now, the sport itself is dying quietly.

The ONLY reason someone would want paintball to be in the Olympic Games is to promote paintball?

-Yes, exactly. There is zero benefit to the sport to have "Olympic Class" teams or equipment, except to promote the sport as a whole.

The point of having something in the Olympic Games is so you can see who has the best individual or team at that sport on a global scale.

-And that helps the sport.... how, again?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see PB in the Olympics, and I'll readily admit that an Olympic Class team would be cool as hell. But I'm looking at it more from the point of a manufacturer, than a player.

We all complain about the quality and size of paint, right? The simple economic fact is that there's no longer enough money in this sport to justify anyone making anything better. It's literally not worth it. Better paint costs more, and we (in general) won't pay the higher price. And there's no longer enough people in the sport to justify a "premium" brand- and probably by about two orders of magnitude.

Similar complaints can be made of tanks, hoppers and goggles, though maybe not to the same scale and effect.

But either way, one thing that would help- and a lot- is whatever promotion might be necessary to get the sport to start growing again. If it's growing at all right now, I'd wager it's barely 1-2%. And considering that the population grows at about 2.3 to 2.5% a year, arguably we're not growing at all. If some promotion could help boost that to even just 3%, the sport as a whole- players and manufacturers- would be doing a LOT better.

Again, I'm all for getting the sport into the Olympics- I'll sign any petition or wear the official T-shirt as needed. But I strongly doubt it's going to happen, and after the initial first-year surge, it's entirely possible the sport will be worse off, not better.

Doc.

[Trbo323]

Again, I'm all for getting the sport into the Olympics- I'll sign any petition or wear the official T-shirt as needed. But I strongly doubt it's going to happen, and after the initial first-year surge, it's entirely possible the sport will be worse off, not better.

Doc.

Worse off how? You even said above that the promotion, should paintball be ignored would be minimal but minimal is still better than none. I don't see how getting minimal promotion makes the sport worse off just because we wouldn't get the absolute gold medal forever prize of being on NBC prime time every year the Olympics are played.





















Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk