Converting a shoot-to-pierce to instapierce?

[Jordan]

I have my KP stripped down waiting for parts to show up and started thinking about what it might take to convert it.

I thought modifying the chamber plug to accept a CCI pierce pin assembly should work, and I think Mad Customs did it already, but has anyone actually done/used an instapierce setup?

Pros/cons to using one vs. the other?

[Toestr]

I've never used either but it occurs to me that if you have balls in the tube you'll be loading one in for the piercing shot and your next shot will be a double feed? That is unless the first ball bloops out of the barrel upon pierce.

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[Jordan]

Exactly, I want to avoid that.

[Tinybear]

Not end of the world. Just need to remember to hold the marker upside down for the piercing shot.

Granted I don’t play stock class offten, ok almost never. But not been an issue with my PGP2k.

Only see it being an issue if you decide to run spring fed.

[Jordan]

Thinking of doing a springfeed at some point... so we'll see.

[Ecapnation]

All of my 12 gram palmers were instapierce.... No click boop

[Axel]

Here's an archive of MadCustoms Marketplace. Matt's photos are gone, but RuleOfSines has a couple good ones in post #2.

[Rusty Brass]

I've installed a couple of insta-pierces but pulled them because I couldn't get the face seals to stop leaking. They live in my parts box now.

[Jordan]

What sort of instapierce setup was it?

[Rusty Brass]

Both are MadCustoms parts. I think the problem is just that the Phantom face seals are so hard that the amount of torque you'd have to put on the 12ie screw/plug is more than Sheridan ever planned for. I tried them with the stock plug, extended, and a Palmer's fast changer - always leaked from the face seal.
I assume other people can make it work? Maybe? Just never happened for me.

[Jordan]

Interested in selling one to me? I'd like to try one but I'm hesitant to modify my chamber plug, I doubt I'll find a replacement if the mod doesn't work.

[RuleOfSines]

Biggest downside I ran into, you're more likely to experience stuck 12 grams if you don't leave a bit of air to poof them out.

[Jordan]

Probably going to do a dropout cut, so that should cover that possibility.

[Spider!]

I've only worked on and tested an insta-pierce. I have one StP and a few bucket changers.

As noted already, the insta-pierce pin is fat like a bucket changer. That means the hole is large and you can run into 12g face seal problems if the necks are not centered (some Crossmans have been really bad). I use Lelands on anything with a fat pin. A pro of the insta-pierce is that the springing has nothing to do with the piercing of the 12 gram.

My StP has stock springs. With a new-ish seal, it puts a nice, tiny hole in the cartridge face. When the velocity is turned down, I sometimes have to point down and shoot to get the gravity assist on the pierce. Otherwise, I sometimes forget it is StP and my first shot is slow, but maybe usable. As the seals get squashed down, they can start to narrow the center hole, restraining the pierce pin. I have a little pressure gauge on the side where the marker used to be constant air. That lets me know for sure what I'm doing (if I think about it ). The hammer weight, springs and seal condition all are part of that pierce cycle. There's not a lot of room for tinkering. A pro of the StP is that you can get a good seal on the 12g and even wait right before game-on to pierce. That means that getting the initial seal is not quite as difficult with a fast threaded changer.

Because Palmer's speed changers and CCI bucket changers have fast threads, they require more torque for a given amount of seal compression. To me, those threads have been a larger decision than StP or not. The stock Sheridan threads are too fine, but fast threads are almost too coarse for two fingers under the barrel.

Either way, you have to think of that 12g face seal as a working seal, not a static seal. They need to be kept fresh (I know that's pretty relative for urethane). I try to reduce twisting of the cartridge on the seal whenever possible (I have ball bearings in two different setups). A problem I still have is to remember to slowly let-down a mostly full cartridge. The gas gets behind the seal to push it out, and the ice attaches between the 12g and the seal.

I think CCI makes their seals hard and small so that they will stay in the changer better. Pumps don't need that big hole in the 12g, and smaller holes help restrict the CO2 flow into the dump chamber. Given that it is a bucket changer where you can easily put a new seal in, I prefer a thicker, softer seal that seals more easily. I've been trying this out for a while now and really like it. I've lost three seals in the last year; every one was at the end of the day when I dumped a full 12g. I get home and discover it while cleaning up. Got to work on my technique.

[BenoitOWN]

It might not work but explore what the tipx did as actuated by trigger?

[k_obeastly]

I've never used either but it occurs to me that if you have balls in the tube you'll be loading one in for the piercing shot and your next shot will be a double feed? That is unless the first ball bloops out of the barrel upon pierce.

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turn the gun upside down

[Jordan]

turn the gun upside down

Unless, you're running a springfeed...

[XEMON]

On the spring feed, I usually pull and lock the spring when I pierce the 12g ...

[The Inflicted]

Old thread but I wanted to chime in.

My KP2 came with an insta-pierce and a coarse thread fast changer. After I had JeeperCreeper convert the gun to springfeed and shorten the lower tube, I had a real problem getting the cartridges to seal. I don't recall if there was a seal of any kind in the adapter, but Jeeper tells me there wasn't one, but with the knob no longer sticking out from the front of the gun I couldn't put enough torque on the knob to get the cartridges to seal up. I tried using a cartridge seal from PGP Junkies, but it was very thick and wouldn't allow the carts to pierce at all, or if they did it was a tiny pinhole which wouldn't allow proper use. I tried a couple other solutions, like using small O-rings, or covering the front of the cartridges with plumber's tape to have their own seals, but nothing seemed to work. What ended up working for me was to create my own seal with red RTV sealant and to crossdrill the knob so that I can use an allen wrench on the field as a tommy bar to really torque it down. Maybe not the most elegant solution, but it worked.









I've recently acquired a very early PPS painter rifle with a Quicksilver conversion. After rebuilding the gun I can get it to seal up and shoot very well using a dummy cartridge and a remote line, but haven't had any luck getting cartridges to pierce yet. I put an Extreme Velocity Phantom urethane seal in this one's insta-pierce, which is thinner than the PGP Junkie's seal, but I still can't get the carts to pierce reliably.



One thing I've noticed is that the pierce knob assembly on this one is very different from the one on my KP2. Its pierce knob is compatible with the same sorts of pierce needles that are used in most modern CO2 bucket changers, including CCI's. The older Palmer conversion, however, has a much thinner stem and finer threads, and I'm curious if anyone knows where I could maybe get a replacement for this part with a sharper or longer needle. Barring that, does anyone know how to adjust or tune a Quicksilver changer to put more force on the cartridge?

[Jordan]

NECROPOST, BRO! 😆

Looks like a Nelspot 007 pierce pin that got subbed in by PPS.

I never got an instapierce setup to work reliably, mostly because of the sealing issue. I may revisit it at some point in the future if I start playing around with Sheridans again.

[The Inflicted]

Hey, I bet you're right.
https://baccipaintball.com/nel2359.html
Wait, though- is the piercing needle a separate part? Or does that depend on how old the 007 is?

[flyweightnate]

Old Nelspots used a needle, no elastomer. The cart sealed around the needle well enough. (If they ever broke, the things were hard as diamonds to drill out.) The newer ones were 8-32 threads. The CCI pins are 1/4-28.

Some people have successfully used CCI pins without a seal in an emergency. The newer EV pins are, frankly, a little rough looking to try. I have some that are a closer match, both port size and surface finish, to the old CCI pins.

[Cunha]

In the days when pugs were easy to buy new for 340 dollars I had a couple pps pugs. (still bought used) They were insta pierce and sealed with my merely average strength ability to crank a fasst change knob.

Never took one apart I just wanted to share that it was possible.

I enjoy these forensic explorations.

The RTV sealant face seal seems like a good way to go.

[The Inflicted]

In the days when pugs were easy to buy new for 340 dollars I had a couple pps pugs. (still bought used) They were insta pierce and sealed with my merely average strength ability to crank a fasst change knob.

Never took one apart I just wanted to share that it was possible.

I enjoy these forensic explorations.

The RTV sealant face seal seems like a good way to go.

Maybe. I bought a couple of those cartridge seals, so I'll probably put one in my KP2 before too long if I have any more problems with it sealing.