4500psi AGD Flatline Regulator

[GlassPancakes]

So I've heard the 4.5k Flatline regs had some issues. I picked one up a couple months ago without a tank attached and I've been mulling around the idea of buying a bottle for it and getting it up and running again. I know they are considerd relics these days but I thought it would be fun to run one on my Automag.

I was hoping to hear from someone who has used one before for any amount of time that could speak to their reliability. I've heard rumor of consistency and longevity issues. Anyone have any input for me on the reg? How did it work out for you?

[Grendel]

Reg seats are the issue, they are a specialty item and even NOS is too old to of any use due to degradation. 3000psi Flatlines are rebuildable but the 4500 psi are pretty much considered non-rebuildable at this point.

I have 2 45K Flatlines in a box I would love to use on a couple of Mags but despair of it ever happening.

[superman]

I want to say DocsMachine was going to look into making some reg seats but he is likely busy with other projects.

[nak81783]

Ha! I was going to say the exact same thing about you.

[DocsMachine]

I have that very thing on my to-do list, and it's not very far down. No promises, but I'll do my best.

Doc.

[Dusty Bottoms]

If you want to use a old adjustable regulator, your best bet is buying and rebuilding a Air America one like a Armageddon or Apocalypse. Immortal Air, which is ran by a lot of the same people that started Air America, makes new reg seats and reg pins for the old AA regs that allows them to fully rebuilt, unlike the Flatline.

[imped4now]

Just to expand on this, AA was started by Dan Colby. Dan and his son, Jon, run IA. They're awesome people that build awesome products. Just last year, I purchased two brand new AA regulators from them, along with some parts and old decals.

[DocsMachine]

... That's it? This is what's been holding things up?



This is the first time I've been inside a 4500 Flatline, and from the general chatter, I guess I thought this thing'd be something exotic or weird, like those Epic seals.

Nope, it's just a 'Mag reg seal. (Sort of.) If anyone wants to experiment, the important dimensions are .390" in diameter (9.9mm) nominally .125" thick (3.175mm) with a nominally .125" center hole. The important number is it's 95 Shore A durometer.

This one has "flowed" a bit- note the 'ring' on the piston that it sliced out as I had to drive said piston through. So that Shore hardness might be low from the original- that is, this particular seal may be starting to rot.

I'll order some material and start fiddlin'. Been meaning to make myself a reg-test fixture, but anyone got a good, in-hydro, bare 4500 tank they want to let go?

And, would you gents just want the seal, or a full rebuild kit? (Roughly a dozen O-rings.)

Doc.

[Grendel]

Full rebuild please, these regulators have been around a long time without a good means to rebuild them outside of NOS AGD parts. I know I would immediately buy 4 rebuild kits to bring to life the 2 I have and have a couple of spare. I also think I have a spare 45/4500 bottle that has a little life left in it I can send on up. I'll locate the bottle and contact you by PM.

[superman]

And the forwarding of people starts now......

[DocsMachine]

Et voilá.





Took a very minor bit of finagling to get the punch size just right, but I believe these will work just fine.

I have not yet reassembled this reg, as I'm still tallying up the O-rings necessary for a full rebuild kit. But, besides that, I also don't have a loose 4500 tank, and neither of my compressors will do 4500 anyway. (They're Shoeboxes, and are supposed to, but both were ordered as 3K's, and I've never tried resetting them.)

So, I need two volunteers.

You need to have a complete, rebuildable 4500 Flatline, with a legal tank, a local place where you can easily get a solid 4500 fill, and enough attention to detail to watch it for creeping, overpressuring, potentially slow recharge, or any other fit & fitment issues.

It should be a drop in, plug-and-play part. It's dimensionally and materially identical to the one that was in my sample. But of course I want to test them in actual use, before I release them, so if you have a 4500 and can, relatively quickly, install, fill and test one of these, shoot me a mailing address via PM, and I'll get one heading your way in the morning.

Doc.

[superman]

I can help if you need it. Have a compressor and need to run some air through a customers mag. Will likely be several tanks at the minimum.

Also for those installing these. Make sure you install the piston between the 2 half’s and use the adjuster to push the reg piston through it to avoid bending the stem.

[DocsMachine]

Great. I'll have a couple heading your way in the morning!
Doc.

[Toestr]

Kinda funny how these regs have been paperweights for years then Doc presents a possible solution only 3 days after being summoned to the case.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[DocsMachine]

Well, considering I bought two 4500s from Superman specifically to try this... roughly a year ago.

Sometimes it's not doing it that's the issue, it's finding the time to do it.

Doc.

[DocsMachine]

Did a little more investigating: Am I somehow on the wrong track, or are these things just 'Mag seals?

I tried one in an old UniReg:



Fits perfectly, works perfectly. I believe in this particular reg, the original seal was long gone, and somebody- possibly even me - swapped it for a 'Mag seal. But this one works just fine. (Well, in a static situation for the moment- I haven't installed it in a gun and fired it yet.)

I also broke open a 'Mag valve with a good quality seal- identical in size and shape, and only measuring very sightly softer- 90 Shore A, rather than 95.

That slight difference in hardness would probably be important at the full 4500 PSI, but I guess I'm a bit surprised no one's picked up on that. (At least, not that I've read.)

Anyway, it kind of looks like these seals could actually work on classic Automags, Uniregs, Raptors and 4500 Flatlines.

Doc.

[superman]

I want to say the geometry where the stem goes in is a bit different shape. I also wonder if the 95D is hard enough.

[DocsMachine]

Good question. The seal I pulled out of the one (I haven't cracked open the other one I got from you, yet) as it shows, pulled a ring out of the center when I had to literally drive the piston out (lightly) with a hammer and punch. Clearly it had "flowed" some, since it has to be able to be placed over the piston pin in the first place.

And considering the pin seals at basically the bottom corner of the pin, there's a limit to how much it could be "shaped". Besides which, while my sample is ancient and has flowed some, it appears to have been punched, not molded- and if that's the case, those corners pretty much have to be square.

'Mag seals are of course also punched, but I can't for the life of me recall what the original UniReg seals were like. I'm not sure I've seen an original in 20 years. The Vigilante ones were a stiff Nylatron like material, a little more give than Delrin, but I seem to recall we always used 'Mag seals in the Unis. (Ditto Raptors. And I've got a circa-'99 pre-"Raptor" Air America around here somewhere, that I know for a fact hasn't been apart since I got it in '01 or so... I need to dig that out.)

Doc.

[DocsMachine]

As for the hardness, I have a Shore A tester: The 4500 seal registered exactly 95, and the standard 'Mag seal registered right at 90. The tester has been spot-on when checking bulk, known-hardness material.

Doc.

[superman]

I know they changed the material from one to another but i forget if the red was first or 2nd. I think Tom realized the first material was too soft. Which maybe isn't the end of the world as long as replacements are available.

[superman]

here is a pic of the white one i took awhile back.

[Araphel]

Just going off appearance, that looks like it may be PEEK.

[Spider!]

It is unsecured, but the old war pig page still has pics...

https://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/regulators/flatline/index.shtml

[DocsMachine]

Interesting. Didn't know about the potential change. If I had to guess, the white was was later, and looks molded- if that depression is from new, not because it's used. I'll crack open that second one and check, maybe by blind luck I got one of each.

I've still got two on their way to ya, Supes, if you could give 'em a good flogging and let me know how they stand up. If not, we can try harder or other materials.

Spider- I'm seeing the page, but none of the pics are coming up. If you can see 'em, do they show a red or white seal?

Doc.

[superman]

I will do some digging and see if i still have the white one. I will also open up the regs i have to see if they are white or red.
Also thank you!

[Spider!]

Red.

The only way I see the pics is on Firefox and I hit the little source icon on the right of the address. I guess the pic server is not secure.

I had to look that button up. It's "reader view - F9" in Firefox.

[Walker]

[DocsMachine]

Thanks! And since the Warpig article is an early-release reg, chances are good the red is the first-gen seal, and the white the second-gen.

Now if we just knew what issues the white one was meant to solve- longevity, probably.

Any pic in that series that shows the serial number of that reg?

Doc.

[Walker]

No Doc, a serial number was not shown.....

[DocsMachine]

Okay, both of mine have red seals, but then, they're also within 200 on the serial numbers. 10100-ish to 10300-ish. No real help, since they could have started numbering at 10000 (which is very common) so these could be either fairly early (#100 and #300 of the production run) or well into production (ten thousand plus.) I'd suspect the former, but that's 100% guess.

However, we're limited by design features here. The reg seals on the tip of the adjuster piston, That tip has to pass through the hole in the center of the seal, and then seal back against it once it's assembled. The seal material can't get much harder, and the hole diameter can't be much smaller.

I can kind of see how that white one can change things- for example, a longer lasting, wider radius sealing surface- but if these punched seals work, even if they might not last as long as an original, are sure better than nothing.

Up to you now, Supes. Flog these things hard, and let us know what happens.

Doc.

[superman]

Maybe this will help..."They are 98 durometer" (https://www.automags.org/forums/show...687#post941687)
I had this saved somewhere but it was the only reference i saw to something harder than 90 when i did some digging before.

Also when they land i will do a a disassembly/reassembly video for those that may need it.

[Spider!]

Lol, yeah they were about gone before videos became a thing.

[DocsMachine]

Makes me wonder how many have just been tossed over the years. I'm a packrat, and can't stand throwing something potentially fixable away, but I know a lot of people that have thrown good parts away- grips, barrels, loaders, whole tanks- just because they don't need them, or they didn't fit or whatever.

That Automags.org post was literally twenty years ago- I didn't realize the availability had been an issue that long.

Doc.