PDogg's EV Phantom Mystery

[pdogg77]

Ok I'm adding my gun to this set of discussions "For Science"

Background: I purchased a new EV Phantom which I got delivered beginning of August. I have played several games with this marker including an OSG stock day, Riot's pistol game, a pickup at Xtreme, and the whole weekend of Stocktoberfest. This gun was in multiple configurations (bottom line, long barrels, short barrels, different feeds etc). Everything worked fine, consistent over the chrono ~270s and a decent amount of usable shots out of leland 12gs (~30, I run a 15 round tube most of the time). I had NONE of the issues people are complaining about. After Stocktoberfest I decided it finally needed a cleaning.

I opened it up and to my surprise it shipped from the factory with a red hammer spring. Intrigued by this I opened the valve to see what color spring was in there... Green. I thought to myself maybe this is the secret to fixing some of these EV Phantom issues... I should tell everyone... UNTIL I chronoed it this AM... Starts 280, shoots down about 10 FPS every shot, gets about 10 rounds to a 12ie until it starts shooting under 200 and leaking down the barrel on the backstroke. I don't know what changed. This is the same parts that were in it before I cleaned it and oiled it like every other Phantom I cleaned and oiled last night (all old CCI and NOT having any issues now).

I will now start swapping parts and see if I can figure this one out. Stay tuned...

First plan is to try it on HPA and see if it is a CO2 only issue
Then I'll try original CCI parts, powertube, springs etc.

[iamthelazerviking]

I have a CCI era Phantom with stock internals, silver spring, no leaks etc. This is one is new to me and haven't fielded it yet. Test fired without a chrono and it felt like it was shooting at proper speeds and got 30 good shots out of an older Leland.

After receiving it and adding different parts, I did a teardown, clean, fresh oil where it belongs.

Took it to the field, and it did what you are describing. Few good shots at 270s 280s then each shot was lower and lower until empty, long before reaching 30 good shots...

Not sure where to begin. Maybe 12 gram piercer seat. Power tube cup seal?

Can't remember where I read, but someone somewhere (probably here) mentioned something about EV's latest cup seal material causing problems.

Going to try replacing the piercer seat first then try new silver and possibly red main springs.

[JeepDVLZ45]

Can't remember where I read, but someone somewhere (probably here) mentioned something about EV's latest cup seal material causing problems.

https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/paintball-news-aa/the-armory/cci/450235-very-low-velocity-issues

[pdogg77]

Agree... something in that material does not like CO2 see below...

[pdogg77]

This is CO2 related... Same gun, same paint, same weather... hour later:

I took it out back and did nothing/touched nothing but put my HPA tank on the vertical ASA and shot 30 shots. All 290-305 no misbehaving. This was with some old paint that was open and a handheld chrono so there is error factor in there but it was consistent and normal. It did not shoot down over the cycle. They were all in that range and no trend.

[SignOfZeta]

Obviously the problem is that you opened it and the magic leaked out, duh.

If I had extra money and time I would buy a new Phantom just to figure out what would undoubtedly be wrong with it. I’m not sure I could ever fix it though since in 30 years of playing almost exclusively with Nelson clones I’ve never had a single issue related to inconsistent velocity/efficiency. These types of guns kinda just…work. My serial 1683 1992 Trracer and my serial 41,000+ 2019 Phantom…pretty much the same performance/reliability, flawless.

It shipping with non-standard springs is certainly a new realization for me. It implies that they knew about whatever the issues are and are applying bandaids for fundamental issues.

VERDICT: swap one CCI era part in one at a time until it works, starting with the cup seal.

[iamthelazerviking]

Oh yeah I totally blanked on a detail....some time ago I had purchased o-rings etc, including a cup seal. Jesse called me left a VM saying he's including two, one for HPA one for CO2. Never used them and they found a new home, but recently purchased another one and it came unmarked or anything indicating it's for a specific air type.

[pdogg77]

WHHHHHHAAATTTTT?!?!?!? This is a key bit of info in this puzzle. "HPA cup seals?!?!?"

[iamthelazerviking]

Not sure what happened with all that since I just got one this last time and no info about HPA vs CO2. Plus I don't believe there's an option for either one on the site. However it does seem like cup seal is the culprit.

[SignOfZeta]

Oh yeah I totally blanked on a detail....some time ago I had purchased o-rings etc, including a cup seal. Jesse called me left a VM saying he's including two, one for HPA one for CO2. Never used them and they found a new home, but recently purchased another one and it came unmarked or anything indicating it's for a specific air type.

The most bi-gas compatible gun I can think of now needs its cup seals swapped out when switching air sources? This can’t be true. I know it would explain everything but that’s just too disappointing to believe. You must have mis-heard the fellow.

VERDICT: put the voice mail on YouTube for peer analysis.

[iamthelazerviking]

I might still have it haha.... hunting now

[iamthelazerviking]

03/24/2023. Working on uploading.

[iamthelazerviking]

Ok here's the voicemail from Jesse I received on 03/24/2023 explaining the cup seal material situation, and when they sent an HPA and edit: one for HPA and co2, I mistakenly said it was just HPA and co2 SignOfZeta

So I was half correct, there was an HPA only seal but the other one was meant for both. Still sounds like many are having issues since March though.

https://youtu.be/huQ1t0HxaFs?si=1WdMOaJsc4iHxgIj

[iamthelazerviking]

Since I'm now tearing my Phantom apart again, it has the original style cup seal. Going to flip it around, doesn't look to be in too bad of condition although some dirt did come out when taking the power tube assembly apart so that's fun.

The new cup seal is definitely harder and white vs the old style. Unsure if I want to try it yet.

[pdogg77]

Update: TLDR this is very likely the cup seal as others have suggested...

I replaced the cup seal with a "very" old Phantom cup seal that was definitely CCI vintage. It came in the box with my original Phantom that I got from them early 2000s in the extra seal kit. The photo below shows the EV cup seal on the right and the old CCI seal on the left before I installed it. Oddly enough this EV seal looks a little different than the problematic ones people have been posting.

Installed new cup seal. Nothing else changed or touched. Shot 30 rounds with HPA still same results (everything clustered around 300fps no drop off or misbehavior). Then I switched it to CO2 and ran ~90 rounds through it, counting about 10 seconds in between each, all consistent around ~270 at the beginning of the string and dropping off normally as the 12g ran out. Got ~30 usable shots out of each 12g and when the gun behaved like it was empty, it was in fact empty. I'll abuse it some more but it seems "better". Now I'll probably try a normal spring combination and see what happens...

[Riot]

I didn’t read everything, but is this a problem EV is aware of? Seems like, based on the last post, it’s a fairly easy fix for them.

As I mentioned on Facebook, I ordered an earlier EV phantom and it’s shot beautifully since I bought it a few years ago. I’d love to see them get it under control before these issues get too out of hand.

[SignOfZeta]

I didn’t read everything, but is this a problem EV is aware of? Seems like, based on the last post, it’s a fairly easy fix for them.

As I mentioned on Facebook, I ordered an earlier EV phantom and it’s shot beautifully since I bought it a few years ago. I’d love to see them get it under control before these issues get too out of hand.

Have you used any CO2 in this gun?

It seems they are shipping guns with non-standard spring combos which means…something, I don’t know what. There’s no good reason I can think of for a stock Phantom shipping from the manufacturer to need springs swapped around. It implies something once standard is drifting and variable.

[Riot]

I’ve only run 12g’s on it for the last two years of stock class games (which is about 6 six for me). I’ve never done anything to the marker. Shot 280 out of the box. I play with it, bring it home & leave it in the box for three months until shooting it at the next one. I had to adjust velocity for the first time this past weekend after those couple of years.

Either I got lucky, or something went sideways AFTER my purchase. In any case, from experience, EV has been great. Bummer to hear about the new issues arising.

[Ordo]

This may be a dumb question, but just out of curiosity have you checked your puncture pin seal? I had a puncture pin seal blow out of my pin assembly and I had similar results as to what your experiencing before I noticed it.

[pdogg77]

Yes I did. Seems fine. The gun is behaving now. I'm going to shoot it a bunch more then try the silver springs and see what happens.

[CUBE]

I didn't realize EV had purchased CCI. I ordered an O-ring TPC recently from them, and it won't even thread into my hammer. I wonder what the deal is.

[$L!mBo]

Mine was doing the same thing.
Switched to silver main spring, silver valve spring.

Issue went away!

later swapped to blue main for easier pumping, still working perfect.