98 Low Pressure questions and findings

[FlightMedic938]

So I made some changes to my 98 and I found out some interesting things. In the pics I’m running x2 gas thru but initially I was running a V3 Custom Products reg. When I aired it up I found out quick that there is a limit to the amount of volume the 98 can take. At 500psi (CP reg wide open and a Ninja UL) and a stiff spring I blew the O ring right off the hammer. I do have the stock VA turned in flush with the powertube and loctite’d in. I did this to increase blowback so I wouldn’t be battling it while I experimented. Also, I had to turn the RT flow control down a considerable amount to get it to function. It was getting way too much air and the piston was harder than a witch’s titty in a brass bra in an snowstorm.

Eventually I had to drop down to the lightest main spring I have to get it to cycle. I also had to drop the pressure using the CP to around 300. It’s now getting fed with a Powerhouse Hook @ 450psi. I tried a Ninja SLP (gauge was reading 270-280ish) and while it would cycle the RT was having issues with shoot down. 300 seems to be the sweet spot. With the RT off and no Cyclone it was shooting very well around 200-250psi.

I was happy with the results but not the look. I took off the CP reg and I’m thinking I’m just going to try and use the Hook solo. I really like the look with the AGD and Dye gas thru grips. If I have problems with shooting hot I can use the RVA to take some tension out of the mainspring and that should fix it (I hope)

If that doesn’t work, does anybody know if there is a lighter mainspring than a blue RAP4 (or Warrior, I forget which)? Also, that 90 feeding the straight fitting, how restrictive is that? Would it be worth it to go to a 45?

Also, my Crossover needs a gas thru and eventually I do want to put an inline on the 98. I want a Sidewinder long with finger grooves but I also have an opportunity to get a Gladiator Gen 2. Which do y’all think would be better? How long is a Gladiator? I don’t want anything shorter than my volume chamber set up.

[Trbo323]

You shouldn't have a restriction worth mentioning flowing through a 90.

And honestly if that causes it not to work then things like temperature or the exact size of the paint will also cause it to not work.

You may want to drill out the back of the valve so more blowback air is directed to the hammer instead of running the velocity screw all the way in

Have you played around with lighter or heavier hammers?

Polished the internals yet?

[FlightMedic938]

I thought about drilling but I’m not sure I want to yet. Instead I’m going to try to create a “blowback assist” using the stock VA port. Basically run a flow control knob and needle valve to a drilled and tapped section in the power tube where the hammer meets the valve stem.

Everything I’ve done so far

polished internals (I also filed and polished a lot of little sharp/rough edges on the feed port on the marker itself and the cyclone. Also the tip of the neck of the aluminum power tube. I noticed the power tubes in general are pretty rough and that’s why some people may have problems with inner O ring front bolts. Sanding down seams and filing away rough edges and then polishing the neck corrects this.)

Shocktech Superfly front bolt
RAP4 aluminum power tube
Warrior valve with TechT valve spring
TechT Zero Kick hammer with inner weight removed
Lapco cocking knob (half the weight of the stock knob and added a smidge of weight to balance the hammer)
Blue main spring (lightest spring)
RVA
TechT trigger and sear pin (1 and 0)
clicky pen trigger spring
1 trigger washer (removed trigger wobble)
filed down stock trigger with an aluminum trigger shoe
RT and Cyclone with 1/8 hoses and fittings
All Cyclone stuff (QEPH, squishes, etc)

Powerhouse Hook tank reg
AGD gas thru
Optimus gauge adapter (Repurposed to air delivery. Removed stock gas thru screw and put in a shorter solid screw)
BT vertical adapter (Only vasa used. Tube and 90 fitting not used. Sealed with JB weld)
CP gauge adapter (Repurposed for air delivery)
Mastersconi mini cocker vasa
Aeroflow 1/8npt thread extender
Dye GT gas thru (Volume chamber. Sealed with 1/8npt plug)

[FlightMedic938]

A pic of the inside. I think this is the most up to date. I’m not using the CP reg currently

[Trbo323]

There's 2 things that stick out to me in your list there.

I would go back to the stock power tube. I've actually seen a lot more problems with the aluminum ones over the stock ones. The way tippmann designed the system, since the hammer has to go in and out of the power tube unlike maybe a spyder where it's inside the lower tube the whole time, I think the plastic being slightly flexible helps with that transition

I'd put that inner weight back in. I think one of the problems you are running into is the hammer is not opening the valve enough to get enough air through to do everything. You may need a stronger spring to compensate

Your routing of blowback air is an interesting idea and might be worth a shot. Just to play devil's advocate though my concern with it is that by the time the air comes through the valve, travels forward to the VA, turns around and goes down your transfer tube the hammer will already be moving backwards past the lip of the power tube. Once it gets that far all the blowback air is being vented out.

Like I said though, might be worth a shot if your want to try it

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[FlightMedic938]

Thanks for the insight! I think putting the inner weight back in might be detrimental. Initially, I was experiencing the opposite issue, the valve was staying open too long. That’s why I had to drop down from a stiff spring all the way to the lightest one I have. It worked perfect at 300 or so psi once I got all the kinks worked out. I just didn’t like the aesthetic of the CP reg.

Now though, at 450psi with just using the tank reg, I’ll probably have to find an even lighter spring, or back out the RVA, or take off the cocking knob to reduce hammer weight further.

[Trbo323]

What makes you say it was staying open too long? In their stock configuration tippmanns use an absolute crap ton of air and basically everything you have done has cut down the amount of air going through the valve while then requiring more for it to run the RT and cyclone.



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[FlightMedic938]

Multiple symptoms revealed overvolumization. The key one was when my hammer O ring was blown off. That’s not a symptom of decreased airflow but it is a symptom of a marker that has over pressure (too much pressure in between the hammer and valve stem because the valve was open too long) The symptoms were resolved when I dropped the pressure and lightened the main drive spring. Also the RT was going crazy, I had to turn in down significantly to get it to function properly.

I’m not sure of why you think the airflow to the valve has been decreased. The gas thru grips act as volume chambers both pre valve and at the valve itself. The gauge adapters act as mini manifolds for air as well. By removing most of the vertical adapter the air now has a straight path in to the valve. It’s somewhere around x6 the amount of air supplied to the valve compared to stock and 25-30% more than a Tippmann low pressure kit.

The RT is shooting ropes at 300psi when I was using the CP reg. Which is surprising because I’ve read multiple times that they won’t work under 350psi. I had to turn the RT down which tells me it’s using less air than my previous set up.

[Trbo323]

Multiple symptoms revealed overvolumization.
The key one was when my hammer O ring was blown off. That's not a symptom of decreased airflow but it is a symptom of a marker that has over pressure (too much pressure in between the hammer and valve stem because the valve was open too long)
.

That's not a thing though. On a stock setup you can plug a tank direct into the valve with a vertical ASA and not have a problem. That is magnitudes more volume than you have in those volumizers and it doesn't cause a problem. Not to mention if you are already running low pressure you have much less pressure coming through the valve and in the space between the hammer and valve, not more. You should also probably have issues with the rear valve body o ring getting blown off as it's the same size as the hammer o ring and gets tons more air pushing on it than the hammer o ring but unless you haven't mentioned it, that's not the case. Since everything that goes down the barrel has to be stopped by that ring it gets even more force applied to it than the hammer o ring.

(On a side note, I just thought of this, instead of your air routing down the side idea to get more air to the hammer, just clip a section of the rear valve body o ring out. That will get more air to the hammer and doesn't involve drilling and fittings)

.

The symptoms were resolved when I dropped the pressure and lightened the main drive spring. Also the RT was going crazy, I had to turn in down significantly to get it to function properly..

Honestly I think this was probably due to the aluminum power tube knocking the ring off. I've had a case where that was happening. In my case it was for a customer so he wanted to keep the aluminum power tube, I ended up filing down the inside lip of the tube where the o ring first contacts the tube. It got the o ring to stay on but the marker was pretty inconsistent velocity wise. If it were my own I would have just switched back to the plastic power tube. Just because something is aftermarket doesn't mean it's automatically better

In your case a lighter main spring slowed down the hammer which meant the o ring stayed on.


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I'm not sure of why you think the airflow to the valve has been decreased. The gas thru grips act as volume chambers both pre valve and at the valve itself. The gauge adapters act as mini manifolds for air as well. By removing most of the vertical adapter the air now has a straight path in to the valve. It's somewhere around x6 the amount of air supplied to the valve compared to stock and 25-30% more than a Tippmann low pressure kit.
.

Because you are running 1/3 the amount of pressure as a stock setup. The volume in front of the valve doesn't matter as long as it's sufficient to fire and recock, after that nothing more is necessary you can't have "too much" as it's restricted by how much you can get through the valve. what matters is what you flow through the valve. If you really are flowing 6x as much air through the valve as a stock setup your velocity should be through the roof but it's not. All you have really done is trade lower pressure for higher volume.

The real problem with the recocking issue is the hammer only has around 1/4" of space where it's traveling and sealing in the power tube. Since you traded pressure for volume you need a higher volume to recock but the sealing space that the hammer has is a fixed volume. Lighter hammer and spring can help this but they can only do so much and I think you are basically on that line between it working and not which is why when you do things to solve one problem the effects cause another

.

The RT is shooting ropes at 300psi when I was using the CP reg. Which is surprising because I've read multiple times that they won't work under 350psi. I had to turn the RT down which tells me it's using less air than my previous set up.

The RT uses the same amount of air no matter what. It's a fixed volume piston. The flow screw is a restriction that keeps the air IN the piston. In a properly sealing setup if you crank the screw all the way in you can actually lock the trigger forward after the first shot as the air is not allowed to come back out of the piston at all.

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[FlightMedic938]

I hear ya for sure and definitely not trying to argue but putting a tank straight in to a vertical adapter or a fitting directly to the valve removes all intermediate air volume. A blowback needs plenums to act as a buffer zone if that makes sense. They need all the air for a shot at once or they will starve. It would be like trying to fire a canon with a straw. That’s why people notice a drop in fps if they put a regulated tank straight in to the VA or valve. Unregulated Co2 would probably be a different story though.

The clipping of the ring could work for sure! I’m currently not experiencing any recocking issues but I’ll definitely keep that in mind if I ever do!

I did inspect the PT for any abnormalities and it seemed ok. If it happens again at its current operating pressure I’ll definitely check it again.

True, very true, but I am flowing a lot of air through the valve so I need the pre valve reservoir to maintain consistency and prevent shoot down. Contrary to popular belief the newer versions of the CVX valve will flow a high volume of air without any alternations other than a lighter valve spring. No need to enlarge channels or anything else really. If you are using a lighter spring you can definitely benefit from a longer stem though. The Warrior valve came with a longer stem which caught me by surprise. If I had to guess it’s probably 4-5mm longer than the 98PL. I think it’s the upgraded one Tippmann issued for the X7. I bought one and when it gets here I’m going to compare it to the Warrior stem.

It’s funny because the stem with LPK is actually shorter than stock. That would definitely be beneficial for a stiffer main spring because it would give the hammer more time to build momentum but the main spring on the LPK is very light. They should’ve used a stiffer spring but they may have been worried about players not using an inline reg and running CO2 which would’ve caused very high velocity. Who knows though.

I am concerned about too high of a velocity though. Especially now that I’m using just the Hook @ 450psi. That’s why I’ll have to probably remove the cocking knob or decrease spring tension further. It’s shooting pretty hard but I lack a chrono to say definitively.

Maybe something was lost in translation but I am very happy with the way it’s shooting and currently not experiencing any problems. I should’ve been more clear about that. My only concern is that I might be shooting hot right now and which reg would be better, a long Sidewinder or 03 MacDev Sonic Gladiator reg 🙂

[Trbo323]

I definitely thought you were having more problems so yeah I read that different.

That high velocity may turn into more of an issue though. I can see a scenario where decreasing the pressure would start to cause problems with recocking or the cyclone.

Shorter barrel/more porting further back or a larger bore would give you some wiggle room

Also clipping that rear valve o ring could divert some air and slow down the velocity, hopefully the cyclone wouldn't be affected by that though

Stem length, that's a tough one. I've never seen any evidence that the hammers actually bottom out when opening the valves. That leads me to believe that the hammer is being pushed back from the valve before it ever contacts the back of the valve.

If that is true then a longer stem may be detrimental as it would start pushing the hammer sooner and the hammer would have less rear travel before the blowback air gets vented out. Less travel under pressure means less force and possible recocking issues.

A shorter stem would be interesting to try since (again, going off the assumption that the hammer doesn't bottom out) in theory it would give the hammer more time while sealed in the power tube to be pushed back.

If I have a 98 with recocking issues I may try this at some point and see what happens. I have plenty of valves around

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[FlightMedic938]

Very interesting. So when I was researching different stems that’s when I noticed that Tippmann issued a recall on the X7 valve stems. I found out that they issued a longer stem to increase velocity because the X7 had a low operating pressure (by Tippmann standards) @ 300 psi. Players were reporting low velocity but for simplicity sake Tippmann wanted owners to maintain the same 300 psi OP so they just released a longer stem. In a low pressure set up with a soft main spring that means the hammer will engage the pin sooner and release more volume while the softer valve spring and lower air pressure will be slower to close the valve resulting in increased velocity.

Now, if someone didn’t have a softer valve spring, or their operating pressure is too high, or both, then the longer stem could definitely cause problems. The increased pressure and spring resistance would cause recocking issues for sure

[Trbo323]

I think you are mixing something up here

From the factory the normal x7s are just a dressed up A5 so they operate on tank output, no regulator, designed around 800psi.

I've never heard of tippmann doing a LP kit on a x7/A5 from the factory, they were always sold separately but maybe that's what it was? If you purchased a LP kit you needed a different valve stem?

The x7 phenom is regulated to around 300psi but uses the flex valve so there is no hammer and valve stem. The phenoms did have a on/off pin that does cause problems because it's too weak but I never heard of any recall on it and as far as I know tippmann never released an updated part to replace it either. They basically stopped producing the flex valve by the time those problems were popping up

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[FlightMedic938]

Ah, so that makes sense about the X7 and the Phenom. The Phenom operates on 300 psi NOT the X7. Good to know.

So this is the stem I’m talking about. TA10052. So now I’m thinking that the Warrior valve I put in is a 2” valve right? And it came with the TA10052? The stem is noticeably longer than my stock stem.

So the 2” valves offer better velocity according to Tippmann, if I’m processing this correctly.

[FlightMedic938]

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