Double Triggers on Emeks are a little bit fast!

[Cunha]

If you want to limit BPS, why are you not playing pump?
If you want to limit BPS, why are you allowing auto triggers
If you want to limit BPS, why are you allowing constant air

The line we draw is arbitrary and in this case the line was drawn on double triggers, which I find offensive because it sticks a nail in a long tradition of awkward looking paintball guns that don't make sense to anyone on the outside world (which I like) but here we are, back in the single trigger mech gun era just like it was pre 2001 before all the spyders got double triggers.

[Cyberpyr8]

I like the concept of pump but just like mag fed for me, there's too much to think about all at once. 😋 I love mech. It is the perfect balance for me of simplicity, strategy and limits to make me play better. I tried pump and I love the guns and limited ammo. But the action of pumping and firing was too much and I wasn't accurate enough to be good at it. Mag fed is ok but I definitely can't shoot and move while counting shots from a mag. Some days I'm lucky to run and shoot effectively. I refuse to upgrade my Emek anymore than a Pops and removing the trigger spring. I want to be handicapped so I play more strategically. Adding all this other stuff in defeats the purpose. I like when I'm gun fighting with an electro and holding my own without shooting 10+ bps.

[Brokeass_baller]

Double triggers are legal on sear-trippers. Just FYI.

[Ironnerd]

A/T because I play with mostly Nelson pumps
CA because the AGD six pack made the debate meaningless

But, yeah... I see where her goin'

[Shaftski]

So based on what everyone is saying....When they say mech tournament, they actually don't mean "mechanical marker" tournament. They actually mean slowball. Kinda like slow pitch softball. Just call it what it is. But if you call it "slow" or "limited" in some way it's almost like a scarlet letter and no one enters. Makes more sense now.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Clip from the ICC rule book but this is pretty universal when it comes to Mech Tournament play.

[fullofpaint]

5.5 is REALLY slow, you can do that with a Tippmann steadily. No real advantage to allowing ramping when everyone else is shooting way faster. Plus easier for the guys who are switching from one format to another at an event. Just lower your MROF and your good to go, no need to fiddle with fire modes too.

[Chuck E Ducky]

The idea is to discourage electro play. It’s a disadvantage especially with today’s modern Mech markers. But even in Mech you can use an electro if you really wanted to.

[Brokeass_baller]

I honestly kinda like the electro rule. Because of how popular it is, many rec players only have electros. With this rule, they can buy an inexpensive mech and get their feet wet, and if it goes down for any reason, they still have a backup and can at least help on the field, even though they've become extremely handicapped at that point.

[Meleager7]

It would be a neat experiment, to create a new, separate class of Mech Play: Let's call it Mechanical - Pure

Criteria:

- No Electros
- Classic sear tripper Mechanical Guns ( Cocker, Automag (no RT) , Spyders, etc) - Can use ANY Loader you want
- Any Pneumatic assisted mech guns (Pneu cocker, Pneu Mag) - No force feed loaders - must use a Revvy
- Any Spool valve mechanical, in any trigger configuration (single, double) - No force feed loaders - must use a Revvy (or Pal )

The thinking here is the Revvy, in all its simplistic, reliable glory, is the Ultimate BPS Referee......you can try to outshoot your Revvy at your own risk!

[glaman5266]

Also no Tippmann RTs
And I like NO electros. That's one thing that irks me with mech events- electros are allowed. Yeah, you can shoot at 5.5 BPS and you don't want to alienate electro players who want their spacegun ergonomics, but if you're going to discourage electro play then simply eliminate them. Done.

I like the idea of making the loader the limiter. But why differentiate between sear trippers and the others? Why give them the option for a higher-powered loader? To compensate for any "inferiorities"? The idea behind mech play is to limit BPS, not give the option for more. A cocker with a Spire IR/Rotor/Speed/etc. is going to be able to shoot faster than a cocker with a Revolution, or at least shoot faster strings way more consistently/frequently. Not to mention there's plenty of instances where older markers (specifically STBBs) are actually better off with a Revvy than with a force-feed. Also, and this may be a regional thing, but pneu-assisted mechs are NOT common around my neck of the woods at all. A virtual non-issue.
If you're going to have a limiter, then everyone should have to deal with it IMO.

EDIT: Not trying to be overly critical. Just my thoughts.

[Meleager7]

No worries here, the more critique the better!

I was just brainstorming some ideas to change up the format a little so that we could see more variety of mech guns at these supposed "Mech" tourneys.

My thinking was even a high end tuned up cocker cannot outshoot a CVO or Emek or M170R , and certainly not a double trigger/hAir valve Emek, so why not give the Classic guys the advantage of a better loader. If they have that incentive, maybe the player opts for a tricked out new Inception or Shocktech cocker, because they want the advantages of a smarter loader.

Then the Revvy will bring the BPS down on the better performing spool valve guns.

My hope would be the two classes of guns would meet somewhere in the middle in terms of BPS.

And if the Gunfighter framed Shocktech guy can develop the trigger speed for sustained high rate of fire, then he has earned that advantage.

If the Stanchy Double Trigger/hAir valve/Emek guy wants to shoot fast, it takes no extra skill since he can now walk the trigger. But he has to take the chance of outshooting his Revvy, chopping paint, and thus hurting his team.....

[Chuck E Ducky]

As skill level goes up the less ROF really matters. The guys at the top of Mech play are not fast shooters. They are just skilled players who can read the field make good fast bumps and can stay alive consistently. Mech games are more about stamina then anything. They are long games played on big fields. It’s all about teamwork, communication and gunfighting skills. A good player will shine regardless of what they shoot. You can only carry so much paint. Especially a front player.

The majority of players use the modern Mech because they are way more reliable and way more efficient. Not because they shoot faster. Same goes for hopper tec. You can get a well tuned Cocker shooting just as fast as a double trigger emek in the right hands. Dose it matter if you can’t snap shoot or move… nope still taking that walk to the dead box.

[Shaftski]

It's an interesting experiment, but just impossible to create a situation where all mechs shoot the same/similar BPS IMO.

Some players have faster moving fingers than others. Some mechs cycle faster than others.

Just seems like playing DOWN to cocker owners more than anything else. Renick/Aftershock have strong influence on the industry and that probably has a lot to do with why the rules wound up the way they did. Aftershock is probably best woodsball team ever. But against EMEKs w/o restriction? People stop spending $$ on cockers and Shocktech goes away. Just putting on my conspiracy hat.

[djeclypse]

All the people saying no field would ban this, well. My field will. The field owner (my old boss) has explicitly said so. Cockers without beavertails, double triggers on modern mechs, all not allowed.

When you say "modern mech" what are you referring to? Would double trigger be allowed with a mag, cocker, carbine, etc? What about the cheaper entry level mechs of the past ten years that had doubles out of the box, such as the ER3 if I recall?

Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk

[fullofpaint]

When you say "modern mech" what are you referring to? Would double trigger be allowed with a mag, cocker, carbine, etc? What about the cheaper entry level mechs of the past ten years that had doubles out of the box, such as the ER3 if I recall?

Read the rules Chuck posted above, specifically 10.21.1. As long as the gun isn't pneumatically switched it can run a double trigger. So basically all the modern mechs, and I think the Automag (?) are banned from double triggers. Haven't actually seen someone run a Mag so not sure what the ruling is on them.

The current rules really are the bets mix of accessibility and keeping the spirit of mech tournaments. Limiting hoppers is just frustrating. Nobody wants to play with a hopper that can't keep up with your gun, we solved that problem over a decade ago now, why would we want to go back to that.

[Jordan]

Read the rules Chuck posted above, specifically 10.21.1. As long as the gun isn't pneumatically switched it can run a double trigger. So basically all the modern mechs, and I think the Automag (?) are banned from double triggers. Haven't actually seen someone run a Mag so not sure what the ruling is on them.

The current rules really are the bets mix of accessibility and keeping the spirit of mech tournaments. Limiting hoppers is just frustrating. Nobody wants to play with a hopper that can't keep up with your gun, we solved that problem over a decade ago now, why would we want to go back to that.

I would think Mags should be allowed - the trigger controls the on-off, which could be viewed as a pneumatic switch, but also controls the sear.

I would probably draw the line at Xvalves and ReTro valves since they do violate those rules (return force more than what is required to pull the trigger) but Classic valves should be fine.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Classic valves are allowed

[Tinybear]

Yeah Mags are kinda blurred. Your trigger operates both a sear and a pneumatic valve. On a classic valve should be no reason to discount it with a double trigger. The xvalve get the boot for the double triggers purely on there higher return force with higher input pressures.

I can attest that the eNMEy with a single trigger is faster than any of my classic valved mags I have owned with a double triggered frame.

[Shaftski]

Classic valve mags look OK if you read the rule carefully. Return trigger force is less than pull force. And since mags trip both a valve AND a sear, it's not a single action pneumatic switch. So double trigger OK. Trigger guard opening isn't restricted.

Cockers are dual action (sear and pnuematic switch) just a different design.

[Bang*Bang**]

So, all seriousness aside... am I the only one that instantly wants to troll a bunch of speedball electros with this thing?

I would love to see the ref call the guy on "BPS" only to have them be shooting a Mech.

Have them 10.2 Electros shaking in their boots! ... until they went uncapped ramping. LOL.

[Brokeass_baller]

Here's a podcast where Tim Montressor talks about automag legality. Sandman and Jake Berenyi are in it as well.

https://youtu.be/6gWTqc08gl8

[Millar156]

Can confirm. Played the ICC twice with a lvl10 classic valved Mag with a double trigger