The small questions you've never asked.

[DocsMachine]

Wouldn't the Rainmaker have predated all of these?

-Good catch and good point. Let's see, the Rainmaker came out in what, '97? I thought the Bushhamster and Defiant came out closer to '99-2K. I know the first time I saw a Tribal in person was 2000, but that doesn't mean that's when they came out. I do recall hearing from quite a few people, online and off, that they liked the Tribal over things like the Impulse and the Bushy2K due to the fact it took 'Cocker barrels.

Doc.

[DavidBoren]

Why didn't someone fix the Thumper?

Has anyone made a bolt-less marker, yet?

Why weren't vertical poppet valves more popular?

What was the purpose/intent of three tube bodies (Angels, Vikings, etc)?

Why are there six pedals if there are only four directions?

[Siress]

Why didn't someone fix the Thumper?

Has anyone made a bolt-less marker, yet?

Why weren't vertical poppet valves more popular?

What was the purpose/intent of three tube bodies (Angels, Vikings, etc)?

Why are there six pedals if there are only four directions?

1) IDK for sure, but I understood it to be a critical design flaw that couldn't be repaired on the parts made and it's not worth building whole new markers.

3) One tube held the gigantic battery cell, the other held the valve and hammer, and the rear triangle varied a lot but basically held the solenoid. Board went into the frame.

4) You forgot about Up and Down.

[DavidBoren]

I thought it was just the internal regulator that kept messing up, and something about not cocking upside-down. Anyways, it's my favorite thing in paintball that never was.

And, why would the M808 main battle tank have a pedal for up and down? I'm kidding, Red vs Blue references are part of my everyday life. Lol.

[Magmoormaster]

Why didn't someone fix the Thumper?

Has anyone made a bolt-less marker, yet?

Why weren't vertical poppet valves more popular?

What was the purpose/intent of three tube bodies (Angels, Vikings, etc)?

Why are there six pedals if there are only four directions?

#1 from what I understand, the guns ran fine as long as you run an external reg instead of the stock integrated reg. Might be wrong though

#2 yes, there have been several. Airstar Nova, ICE Epic, Alien Revelation. The Thumper is bolt-less. Probably more that I'm forgetting.

#3 On the Angel, the 3rd tube held the battery as mentioned. The Viking just used the same body as the excal, which needed 3 tubes because it was closed bolt and thus used 2 rams. One ram to cycle the valve, one to cycle the bolt. They used the same body for the viking because it was cheap.

#4 shut up caboose!!

[glaman5266]

"The Viking just used the same body as the excal, which needed 3 tubes because it was closed bolt and thus used 2 rams. One ram to cycle the valve, one to cycle the bolt."

I never knew the Excal was closed bolt! Learn something new every day.

[DocsMachine]

Why weren't vertical poppet valves more popular?

-The rest have been answered, so I'll take this one. And it has to do mainly with part strength and wear. A standard end-on poppet valve like a Spyder, 'Cocker or PGP basically puts the bulk of the force in-line with the valve stem, it's strongest direction. The stem can be light, and the valve made of virtually anything, from aluminum to brass to stainless.The hammer, too, doesn't have to be anything particularly amazing- mild steel, stainess, brass, etc.

A vertical valve, like the ThunderCat (which I think was the only example) basically pushes the valve poppet down from the side. It "wedges" it down. As such, the stem has to be considerably thicker and stronger to resist the bending force, plus you have to have hardened elements both at the tip of the stem and the 'wedge face' of the hammer. That's because it's not just a push, it's also a "scrubbing" action- the tip of the stem has to slide down the 'ramp' of the hammer.

If both elements weren't hardened, they'd wear rapidly and eventually render the gun unworkable.

AND, it's really not worth it. There's no benefit to be had. Performance isn't improved, consistency isn't improved, gas efficiency is likely reduced, etc. So it costs more to produce, makes for a more complex- and thus expensive- body assembly, and offers no real benefits.

Doc.

[DavidBoren]

Thank you for the science.

I was just thinking that the vertical poppet offers different packaging solutions. And the use of a cam/lever seems like a way to reduce the wear associated with the configuration.

The ZAP ZXS600E is also a vertical poppet.

[smiffington]

I'm jumping in late here but the t15 is a vertical valve as well. The housing around the valve stem they call manifolds, and are easily replaceable. My guess is they just want you to replace those parts every now and then. I think for them it was rh best valve to cram into the tiny space they wanted. Very finnicky, definitely a case of form over function.

[dartamon]

To add to Doc's post - Spyder threads also became common among cheaper guns. LAPCO made their thread adapters to Spyder threads because it was very likely that someone with a Stingray or a Raptor would have access to Spyder-threaded guns, but not Cocker threaded ones.

[The Inflicted]

-The rest have been answered, so I'll take this one. And it has to do mainly with part strength and wear. A standard end-on poppet valve like a Spyder, 'Cocker or PGP basically puts the bulk of the force in-line with the valve stem, it's strongest direction. The stem can be light, and the valve made of virtually anything, from aluminum to brass to stainless.The hammer, too, doesn't have to be anything particularly amazing- mild steel, stainess, brass, etc.

A vertical valve, like the ThunderCat (which I think was the only example) basically pushes the valve poppet down from the side. It "wedges" it down. As such, the stem has to be considerably thicker and stronger to resist the bending force, plus you have to have hardened elements both at the tip of the stem and the 'wedge face' of the hammer. That's because it's not just a push, it's also a "scrubbing" action- the tip of the stem has to slide down the 'ramp' of the hammer.

If both elements weren't hardened, they'd wear rapidly and eventually render the gun unworkable.

AND, it's really not worth it. There's no benefit to be had. Performance isn't improved, consistency isn't improved, gas efficiency is likely reduced, etc. So it costs more to produce, makes for a more complex- and thus expensive- body assembly, and offers no real benefits.

Doc.

The only real benefit I can think of is form-factor, which I assume is why the First Strike T15 uses the layout.

[homerj]

Why do mannequins have nipples? Are there enough women that want to know what a particular shirt would look like on them if they didn’t wear a bra? And if that’s the case then why don’t they put....bulges....on male mannequins?

[Jordan]

I'm guessing the mold material is cold?

[Cdn_Cuda]

There used to be a stripper’s clothing store near where I worked called Dare to Wear. It’s mannequins had huge breasts with very pointed nipples and I assume it was exactly as you mentioned, so you’d know how you would look bra-less in the outfits. I miss walking by that store....

[Knuckle Dragger]

I think there might be a psychological reason behind it. Possibly to draw men around the article of clothing and think about “hmmmm, how will that fit my wife/girlfriend?” Maybe it’s just my experience.

[glaman5266]

What's the difference between bore-drop and breech-drop? I always wondered that but always forgot to look it up. And I just got done with work so right now I'm lazy, lol.

[The Inflicted]

What's the difference between bore-drop and breech-drop? I always wondered that but always forgot to look it up. And I just got done with work so right now I'm lazy, lol.

[DocsMachine]

Why do mannequins have nipples?

-Gives you a place to hang your keys while trying on some pants.

Doc.

[Tarsun2]

Breech drop...? 1st time hearing this term lol
why the hell would you want the ball to be forced over a ledge like that???

[Knuckle Dragger]

To buy more paint and squeegees...

[The Inflicted]

Breech drop...? 1st time hearing this term lol
why the hell would you want the ball to be forced over a ledge like that???

It's not that you want the ledge to be there, it's that the stepdown from hammer/bolt size to the .68 inner diameter of the barrel is a vestigial design attribute from the original Nelspot. Guns that more closely follow the Nelspot pattern like the Phantom retain that original bolt design (and thus the breech drop "step") whereas arguably more "evolved" designs like the Line SI Bushmaster and Trracer go with the bore-drop pattern, which was indeed marketed as an improvement over the original breech-drop setup.

Two arguable drawbacks of a bore-drop design is that the longer bolt face necessitated by it makes the overall gun longer by nearly an inch, and that this also has a slightly detrimental effect on efficiency due to the longer powertube needed to deliver gas to the ball.

[Grendel]

Breech drop...? 1st time hearing this term lol
why the hell would you want the ball to be forced over a ledge like that???

You have to remember original paintball markers were used literally for just marking things (trees, livestock,..etc). They were not originally developed to play the "Paintball" (game/sport - a different debate/discussion). We were primarily just re-purposing already existing devices and some of those ended up being designed either as bore drop or breech drop by their original designers and for the purpose of marking thing neither were better or worse (fast/positive loading on the run was not a design consideration). What was important was the ability to load a projectile into a tool that can "reliably" send that projectile down range at "reasonable" velocity to ensure reliable marking.

As time when on and player configurations started driving modification of existing then eventually into manufacturing these two branches supported and developed further with pros/cons for each. I do not believe either is better inherently but really is driven my use, technique and preference. (Pros/Cons below are based around Nelson style markers but breech and bore drop terminology can be applied to other style markers but usual is discussed around Nelson style markers)

Pros Breech Drop:

• Shorter Bolt/Hammer/Valve package from bolt tip to valve
• hopper position closer to trigger frame (better balanced)
• before the day of detents the breech acts to hold the paintball prior to loading into bore. If you train yourself to cock/load just prior to shooting verses keeping a ball loaded this helps prevent roll-outs (old school "trick")
• Not as finicky about shape and size of paintball so easier to get ball out of feed neck into body of the marker for loading (see the Con - not as gentle on paint)
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in)

Cons Breech Drop:

• Difficult to have two arm pumps (while it has been proven many times single arm pumps can be just as good as two this was a perceived disadvantage and lead to things like Colin Thompson (LAPCO) coming up with the Grey Spirit (bore drop) to supplement Grey Ghosts (breech drop) markers in the olden days).
• Chopping - not as gentle on paint (have to load into the bore over a "ledge")
• Incompatible with First Strikes rounds(tend to want to flip in the breech when loading (jamming/chopping vs. loading into breech)
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in)

Pros Bore Drop:

• Easily supports two arm pump configuration
• Less chopping (no ledge to load over dropping straight into breech)
• Potentially compatible with First Strike rounds
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in)

Cons Bore Drop:

• Hopper position further forward so more weight out front
• Roll outs, you are loading ball straight into the bore if the bore is much larger then the ball they'll tend to roll-out. (Detents, inserts or modified technique needed to prevent)
• Longer Bolt/Hammer/Valve Package
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in).

I personally like bore drops over breech drops I think the pros out weigh the cons but not by a huge margin and my go to stock class marker right now is a breech drop (Duckslide Phantom). I currently do not use First Strikes and when playing pump the chopping issue really is not that big of an issue (really almost unheard of for experienced pump players to chop a Phantom).

[Rusty Brass]

You have to remember original paintball markers were used literally for just marking things (trees, livestock,..etc). They were not originally developed to play the "Paintball" (game/sport - a different debate/discussion). We were primarily just re-purposing already existing devices and some of those ended up being designed either as bore drop or breech drop by their original designers and for the purpose of marking thing neither were better or worse (fast/positive loading on the run was not a design consideration). What was important was the ability to load a projectile into a tool that can "reliably" send that projectile down range at "reasonable" velocity to ensure reliable marking.......

(Bunch of good stuff)

.....I personally like bore drops over breech drops I think the pros out weigh the cons but not by a huge margin and my go to stock class marker right now is a breech drop (Duckslide Phantom). I currently do not use First Strikes and when playing pump the chopping issue really is not that big of an issue (really almost unheard of for experienced pump players to chop a Phantom).

I think you got that covered pretty well. Bore drop seems like the better design but Phantoms are still the best (easiest?) platform for Nelson stock class so we all tend to roll with breech drop. I'd prefer a bore drop but that's not how it worked out, simple twist of fate.