The small questions you've never asked.

[k_obeastly]

Was Dye making a joke when they named their "throttle" HPA bottles the same word you would use to deprive someone of air by placing your hands around someone's neck and squeezing?

[MrKittyCatMeowFace]

Im guessing they were going for the connection to the saying. "Engines at full throttle". You make a good point though .

[Tarsun2]

if you can regulate the tank pressure, why not just use the tank reg only instead of a tank reg and a HPR.
hell, why even have a tank reg/HPR and LPR. in the 1st place.

im sure there would be an easy way to make an externally adjustable tank reg if that were the case.

[imped4now]

I'm guessing you missed the late 90s/early 2000s?

Even then, there's technical merit to dual regulation other than being "required to step down pressure for downstream processes."

[Olsson]

Was Dye making a joke when they named their "throttle" HPA bottles the same word you would use to deprive someone of air by placing your hands around someone's neck and squeezing?

If they only made this fail/joke once, I would probably put it down as a tounge in cheek kind of joke. However, Dye also marketed their top of the line paint by proudly boasting in ads and on the very boxes "Perfect cylinders". Yes, really.

[Olsson]

if you can regulate the tank pressure, why not just use the tank reg only instead of a tank reg and a HPR.
hell, why even have a tank reg/HPR and LPR. in the 1st place.

im sure there would be an easy way to make an externally adjustable tank reg if that were the case.

Yep, regulating the pressure directly from the tank, thereby eliminating the need for an HPR was a thing back in the day. As was having a whole plethora of regulators, with some idea of where the perfect gap between pressures was - but that's a whole different can of worms. Anyway, the initial run of both Impulses and SFTs were sold with a gas through, rather than an HPR as a grip.
.

[flyweightnate]

However, suppose you have 1% variation per reg. The first reg could be off by up to 45psi from a full tank to an empty tank. The second reg would then be off by only 0.45 psi.

Prior to pressure compensation (like the Pi and 2L regs) this would be a really big deal, especially for smaller pistons (like the Myth regs!) or sensitive guns.

[Olsson]

Absolutely true, but I don't recall anyone actually stating actual facts back then. It was more a common idea that the more regs on your setup - the better. I mean, you must have seen the Classic Intimidators of the time with four regs on them, since they were the easiest markers to simply cram an agg-worthy amount of regs on.

Oh, and the four regs of course being a SP Maxflow on the tank, the OG Intimidator front block with dual front mounted LPR/HPR - and swapping the front grip for yet another HPR.

[XEMON]

Externally adjustable tank reg have been around for a long time ... People just thought they were useless ... Because they already have an adjustable reg on the gun ... So why pay extra an adjustable tank reg?

[DocsMachine]

if you can regulate the tank pressure, why not just use the tank reg only instead of a tank reg and a HPR.
hell, why even have a tank reg/HPR and LPR. in the 1st place.

[cracks knuckles]

Virtually every regulator we use in paintball is a very simple "single stage" reg. If the output pressure plus the spring pressure equals the tank pressure, flow stops. Once the output drops slightly (IE, you fire the gun) the tank pressure overcomes that and the spring pressure, and allows air to flow.

This is regulators 101, known and well documented since the dawn of the industrial age.

Now, here's the trick: the tank pressure, of course, does not stay the same. The tank pressure is a "spring" on one side (like the valve spring on a Nelson) while the adjuster spring and the downstream pressure is the "spring" on the opposite side.

As the tank pressure drops, that "spring" gets weaker, which effectively means the adjuster side spring gets stronger. So what you get is the output pressure rises as the tank pressure drops.

It's a known, well-established phenomena. Modern designs can minimize it, but cannot eliminate it, any more than we can eliminate tires from a car. It's an inherent part of the system.

SO... the easy solution is to run a secondary, or "inline" regulator. For the main tank reg, the amount the output rises is a small fraction of the amount the tank pressure drops. Same goes for the inline reg- the input pressure rises, which makes the output drop, but also only at a very small ratio.

The upshot being that the pressure at the gun varies a LOT less than it might on the tank reg alone.

In the case of the Max Flow, it's a much more complex "pressure balanced" design. It "self compensates" to a certain degree, by allowing a tiny bit of pressure to bleed into the primary piston. It's almost, but not quite, a double regulator- though it would be slightly more accurate to say it's a regulator with a variable-area primary piston.

As such, the Max, at least the older manifolded "cans", can run a marker by itself, and still provide consistent pressures and velocities.

Doc.

[imped4now]

One of the better explanations I've seen regarding regulator function in general, along with the Max's compensating design. You're a rare bird in the paintball world - true understanding.

[Tarsun2]

even a 4500 psi tank with an output set to 40-55 psi (LPR setting)...?
i would imagine that the pressure differences would he high enough to prevent "back feeding". ( i feel like im not fully understanding).

[Euphie]

if you can regulate the tank pressure, why not just use the tank reg only instead of a tank reg and a HPR.
hell, why even have a tank reg/HPR and LPR. in the 1st place.

im sure there would be an easy way to make an externally adjustable tank reg if that were the case.

Notice the bottle threading directly into the regulator? It is the same as that Impulse above except instead of an ASA it has 5/8-18 male thread hooked to a fill nipple, on/off valve, and tank pressure gauge so that 4500 PSI goes directly into the regulator. This design also does away with the LPR, the whole marker runs on less than 200psi and that brass valve hooked to the regulator is a 240 PSI pressure relief valve. It should also be noted that for whatever reason Smart Parts included that hose with 3000PSI working pressure.

This might seem worse than tank regulator to HPR to marker, but in fact this one performs better than my other ones which are that way. I have a Ninja 90ci with a 4500PSI HK regulator, which has an ASA that is hooked to a maxflo inline to my remote, and once the tank dips below 800 PSI (which is the preset output of the HK regulator) my velocity starts to drop, whereas with the Infamous tank/maxflo reg I don't have any noticeable velocity drop till I am close to 200 in the tank. This also does matter as in normal gameplay the pressures will run low, one hopper and 3 pods is enough to drain that 80ci tank to only a couple of hundred PSI.

[Cunha]

Gotta love that shocker efficiency. Switch to 30oz co2 :P

[Euphie]

Oh, I wish I could use co2, but my field just doesn't fill it when my 90/4500 expires in a year or two I am probably gonna replace it with a First Strike 124/4500 bottle and just swap a decent regulator onto it

[zinger565]

Poppit based markers: Efficiency vs Low Pressure

Back when I was playing regularly, there was a constant drive to lower the operating pressure (hpr) in poppit markers (spyders, timmys, bushy's, cockers, etc), generally to compete with the "smoothness" of spool valves. At the time, I also believed this helped with efficiency (lower pressure = less air, right?).

However, now that I'm all grown up and properly edjumacated I understand that lowering the operating pressure requires a longer dwell and more air volume, potentially reducing efficiency. There's gotta be a sweet spot somewhere, right? I'm planning on running a pump/sniper on a 13/3000 tank and I'm trying to figure out if switching it to low-pressure internals would be worth it or not, same with standard cockers. Or if that will just lower efficiency in order to make a "smoother" feeling shot.

[flyweightnate]

Devolumizing is important for a 12g so half your gas isn't just refilling the LPC or lower tube, since every time you change it, those volumes just empty out.
With bulk air, it'll fill up when you screw in your tank, and stay full until your tank is dry. 10 shots of gas is a lot on a 12g, but trivial on a 7oz or bigger.

[Jonnydread]

In my experience with pump cockers you are better off finding the RIGHT operating pressure for your setup rather than trying to nickel and dime out the performance/efficiency. My sniper with CCM lowers and a venturi bolt seems to like running just a touch over 300psi. I could probably get 120+ shots out of a 13/3k which is more than enough for a game. I had AKA internals in another sniper build and the shot quality was all over the place and I don't think the efficiency was any better than my current sniper.

[imped4now]

Pressure and volume share an inverse relationship, yes

It takes a certain amount of *energy* to propel a paintball to the desired velocity. On the pressure/volume spectrum, you have a fairly wide range of choices between low pressure/high volume and high pressure/low volume.

And then you get into things like expansion volume, flow rate and lift/mechanical dwell where your factors are spring rate, cupseal surface area, valve body design, etc. etc. It's not a quick and easy discussion.

[Tarsun2]

i thought there was...

"sweet spotting"

more to the point though, i would imagine Kingman Could Have lowered the pressure but at 800 PSI it will shoot anything out the barrel that fit at the correct velocity. better for people that want something that "just works" and leaves loooooootttts of room for variables.
imagine if some little whipper-snapper saved his lunch money and bought a tuned spyder as his 1st marker only to find that his cheap paint was too inconsistent to chrono correctly and that he had to stay on top of cleaning, maintenance, and use good quality lubes...