Catching fake "paintball" masks

[Pump&Run]

Some fields do look. 10 years ago my buddy asked me to play walk on with him and his son. I had been out of paintball for a decade at that point. I showed up Salty with my AC and my favorite Vents Predator …

The 17 year old guarding the field entrance said my mask was not allowed. I wasn’t happy then, but makes sense now.

More places should check equipment if they don’t already.

[zinger565]

Local field has 3 or 4 of those on "display" that have been shot by a paintball mask. I believe last year they did a demonstration video comparing the fakes to a real mask being shot and posted it to their website as well, which is good.

Also, I know I overheard someone near my campsite at GBG last year upset that he couldn't use his mask even though it was a "paintball mask" on Amazon. I told him about the fakes and he understood, but was still upset that he got duped. (So good on Splat Tag for checking, even during a big game with a lot of players roaming around).

[Tarsun2]

amazon dont care.
and it kills me. i cant stand it and it starts making my blood pressure rise.

the "over the top" listings.
million lumen flashlights that that are only about 100 lumen.
power supplies that say 12v but are actually anywhere from 10 - 16 v...
just overall blatant lies.

if capt'n crunch can be sued because the crunch berries ar'nt actually berries, how can amazon products be sold with such false claims.

even the infomercials. "this college student just upset a billion dollar (insert industry here) by creating a (insert stupid product here).
"heat any room in 30 seconds"... Its just a Fuc7ing PS BS (rabble rabble rabble) <--- (nixon voice) mini ceramic heater or a tiny swamp cooler you fill with ice water. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[cellophane]

Are those airsoft masks that are just mislabeled, or costumes that are listed as paintball gear?

I have seen players told their mask wasn't allowed, but the one instance that stands out to me was at a tournament and the ref said something. I'm not sure if it was because of the color or the mask itself though.

[TF_Aloha]

I'm no paintball insurance expert but I imagine they are already required to check hydro dates on tanks and Chrono speeds but that's definitely not something that every field does

The Department of Transportation requires fields to check hydro dates and insurance companies do as well. Insurance companies definitely require chrono-ing as well.

Mask inspections are another animal though. Liability-wise, they may actually be a really risky move. Without an inspection, the customer is liable for a mask failure, as long as it's not a rental. If it's a counterfeit or mislabeled mask, they were the one who chose it and failed to recognize it. The could sue the mask vendor/manufacturer, but the field should be in the clear.

If there's an inspection though, they will be able to argue that a field employee, executing company policy, reasonably assumed to be trained and competent, directly told the customer that the mask was safe for use before playing. Now there's a problem if it was a hard to recognize counterfeit. Now there's also a problem is someone has a legit mask that has been modified, damaged, or incorrectly assembled. An agent of the field is now on the record saying "this will protect your eyes."

I'm all for signage everywhere and immediately stopping counterfeits from getting on the field, but I'd be real careful about doing something that may make employees act as a safety-certification authority for other people's used masks.

[The Hobbit]

I get your point about field employees assuming liability by check masks. Now as a counter point, with tanks there is information about safety specs and life right on it. As far as I am aware the Astm standard is not anywhere on a pair of goggles.

As an industry initiative could mask manufacturers add the astm cert on the mask, similar to how motorcycle helmets have a certification printed on them. Not a fool proof thing but something consumers could look for and field employees could check, if they suspect a mask isn’t paintball rated.

Employees could point this out to customers as to why the goggles aren’t allowed or safe. Do this in a way that isn’t an insurance mandate but more of a CYA approach for the field.

This would create a gray area on modified goggles though. If I cut my profilers for soft ears, does that void the certification? Would fields be willing to enforce that? What would entail permanently modifying the mask system in such a way that they aren’t safe.

Of course this could already be on goggles and I just haven’t seen it.

[TF_Aloha]

Mask manufacturers could put something about ASTM compliance wherever they want, but most don't want to. The ASTM standard is super detailed, and like the first half or more is just about the optical qualities of the lens. Some of them don't even actually say they're compliant on the packaging, rather they say something like "ASTM Member" or "Tested To Industry Standards." I don't think that they're skimping on the testing for trauma prevention, but they may not want to be open to a lawsuit years later because they misinterpreted the definition of some measurement of refraction.

Goggle safety and liability is a really sticky area. Companies are really careful to never make too definitive of statement in regards to safety ever. There's just too much out of their control once the customer can handle the product.

Even if a mask was actually stated to be ASTM compliant out of the package, it will probably no longer be covered by that statement after the first day of play.

Here's the manual for the ProFlex: https://www.paintballsolutions.com/w...X_X_MANUAL.pdf

Highlights:

"WARNING: Call JT Paintball for a replacement strap if strap becomes
stretched out. Serious injury or death could occur if strap is not properly
tightened. "

" Only use JT Majik™
spray to clean lens. "

"WARNING: Lens should be replaced
after taking a direct hit or after a year
of use, whichever comes first. Check
lens prior to use. If any cracks or lines
are present, the lens will need to be
replaced. Failure to replace cracked
lens could cause loss of eyesight or
death."



Once you get gogged, JT says your mask needs a new lens. Unless a ref sees the lens come out of the packaging, they'll probably be the only person who is actually saying that the lens is still safe.

[Trbo323]

The Department of Transportation requires fields to check hydro dates and insurance companies do as well. Insurance companies definitely require chrono-ing as well..

Yes, and just because it's written on paper somewhere must mean it 100% always happens....

Mask inspections are another animal though. Liability-wise, they may actually be a really risky move. Without an inspection, the customer is liable for a mask failure, as long as it's not a rental. If it's a counterfeit or mislabeled mask, they were the one who chose it and failed to recognize it. The could sue the mask vendor/manufacturer, but the field should be in the clear..

Ehhhh. I think you could make a wilfully ignorant argument about the field. Ignoring safety issues is not the same as not knowing about them

If there's an inspection though, they will be able to argue that a field employee, executing company policy, reasonably assumed to be trained and competent, directly told the customer that the mask was safe for use before playing. Now there's a problem if it was a hard to recognize counterfeit. Now there's also a problem is someone has a legit mask that has been modified, damaged, or incorrectly assembled. An agent of the field is now on the record saying "this will protect your eyes." .

I suspect that's why fields don't go that far. Not seeing a problem is not the same as guaranteeing safety. There's basically 3 things the field can do

1) no checks at all/ignoring basically everything
2) checking as players walk into the field, no guarantees of safety, basically being aware
3) check process that guarantees safety

No field in their right mind is going to do number 3, without testing the masks themselves it doesn't make sense to. Good fields do number 2, bad fields number 1

I'm all for signage everywhere and immediately stopping counterfeits from getting on the field, but I'd be real careful about doing something that may make employees act as a safety-certification authority for other people's used masks.

But they have to be able to draw a line. They HAVE to have a short of authority. Otherwise Billy blue jeans can take his mask with a spider web cracked lens and waltz onto the field. If the refs/field has no authority to kick him out and he gets injured that's still a court case. I don't care that he signed a waiver, Billy is going to argue that the field had the authority and ability to stop the game and chose not to.

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[TF_Aloha]

Oh yeah, I should have said "I'm all for signage everywhere and immediately stopping counterfeits AND VISIBLY UNSAFE EQUIPMENT from getting on the field."

I'm all for a VERY aggressive #2. Every ref should know what to look for, every employee should be able to stop a game from starting if anything looks unsafe, including some "My eyes, my choice" idiot with a cracked or fake mask. I'm only saying that it's a real bad idea to have refs ever put in the position where they have to maker the positive statement "This mask is safe." "This mask is unsafe, you can't use it" is fine, and in my opinion, is the only ethical way to run a field. Fields have an obligation to prevent preventable injuries. Not just for the people in danger, but also for everyone else who doesn't want the memory of blinding some idiot with a cracked airsoft mask.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Has anyone been injured form these masks there must be some kind of record of paintball injuries for insurance companies to base their Risks assessments on. Im betting eye injury’s come more from kids taken the mask off then cheap knock off ones failing.

Yes it’s a safety issue yea they often don’t stop a paintball and can fail. But Im thinking they stop the first few good enough for people to realize they messed up but not actually get injured. I could be totally off. But In all the years I been playing it’s very rare to see someone out on the field with the knock off airsoft type masks. In over 25+years I have only seen someone attempting to play in one, one time and was stopped. I don’t think it happens as often as you would think. I don’t think they fail as catastrophically as you would think when they inevitably do. I think it’s likely they fail but the user doesn’t lose an eye due to it is my point. From what I have seen it’s more likely a user removes a mask then the mask failure itself. I feel like statistically paintball is actually a pretty safe sport for people who can follow simple direction.

[Trbo323]

But Im thinking they stop the first few good enough for people to realize they messed up but not actually get injured.

I wouldn't be so certain about that

https://youtu.be/r0NU9cCQXzk?si=Pg4zGqHxO8PQaG_Z

It stopped 1 ball, the second came straight through. If those happened in different games there's no warning of that one that comes through

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[Chuck E Ducky]

No doubt I have seen that video before. But that’s not a typical shot the average paintball player takes especially the first time out. Not saying you can’t. All I’m saying is there must be some very accurate statistics and studies on the topic from an insurance perspective. Otherwise nobody would assume the risk. What is the percentage of safety equipment fails VS user error. I’m not disputing the danger of using pore quality safety equipment sold as safe for use. I’m disputing the the idea that it’s a major problem in paintball. From the commercial experience I don’t see that being the case. I know I’m Always on the look out for the “air-soft masks”. Rarely do I see them and even more rare to see them actually make it on the field. I feel like any good ref is going to spot them a mile away. So will season players. Awareness is important tho. However I don’t feel it’s as big of an issue as some make it out to be. The i4 knock off is definitely the most sketchy as it looks very good at a quick glance. I would be curious what the actual statistics are for actual equipment failure Vs user error. I bet both are low compared to other less extreme sports. Paintball statistically is super safe. Especially when you consider your running around the woods hurling Paintball’s has super high rates of fire 300fps at each other.

Like Bow stated “the community dogpiled him telling him it's not a real mask and not safe.” I think there is so much of this that the reality of somebody making it to a commercial field making it on the field and getting shot point black is just not likely. There are tons of fail safes in our sport. Awareness is key tho I agree.

[zinger565]

Totally agree with you Chuck.

I guess the bigger concern would be the family the buys a couple of guns and masks on Amazon for gifts and goes to the backyard to try them out, but there's only so much you can do.