Is it me or... (tournament scene observation)

**The Jayster** · 12-11-2023, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by RAZRBAKK

Who are the rec players that are buying high end guns? The ones with disposable income. For most rec players having the latest high end space gun simply isn't as big of a priority as it is for tournament players.

Truth is, for most of us plebes, an A-5, an Emek, or at the most, a 180R should be good enough.

About the grade of marker - ostensibly, yes. Yet, even at the recball fields I go to things can get a bit competitive sometimes and many like to have something that can perform accordingly. Case in point: during my last game about a month ago it was rather cold and everyone with a blowback was in blender mode, whereas those of us with higher end markers had no issues.

About disposable income, that's interesting. I'm at a point in my life where I've worked hard enough to get where I'm at and can now live in relative comfort. I could now walk into any pro shop, point towards the most expensive gun on the wall and buy it without having to resort to credit. But I'm also at a point where I want the seller to justify every dollar I pay for whatever I buy. In other words, I don't mind paying extra if I can be convinced it's worth it. As it stands, when I look at 'super' high ends I am not convinced when compared to my current needs. OTOH, were I to play in speedball tournaments I'd buy one without thinking, with a spare one to boot. I would not mind paying a large premium even for minor advantages, as I would want every possible one I could get.

**martix_agent** · 12-11-2023, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Trbo323

It's more interesting. The teams don't have matching gear for the most part because that's before full team sponsorship. It almost looks like a rec game but the players are actually working together. Still in the time of meaningful innovation. Today, the whole team shoots the same marker and it's getting to the point that unless you get a closeup on the marker your may not even be able to tell which model it is. It's become one size fits all paintball and it's just so.... BoringOk. I'll still say that if a player finds value, for whatever reason, great, buy it. Lol, there's a mechanical league now as well. But that's quickly becoming the next BPS war so we will see how long it lasts

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Have you watched any of the woods field mech event videos? Those make me kinda want to do it again.

**Trbo323** · 12-12-2023, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by RAZRBAKK

Ok, and where did I say they shouldn't? Feel free to go back and read what I said, because I'm still not sure what your original point was in quoting me.

I know how reading works thanks.

My point is that I don't believe buying high end and income are solely tied together. What matters more is how much value the player finds in the marker

This last weekend i just had a guy buy a marker from me who had to wait a few weeks to get it because the first time around the money he had to buy with was his rent money. He was basically ready to get in trouble with his landlord so he could buy a marker. Even two weeks later I have a hard time thinking the money he spent was all of a sudden disposable and couldn't have been used for something else.

He found so much value in what he was buying that he was not using disposable income.

How many tourny bros are buying those high ends on credit? That's not even income of any kind.

Originally posted by martix_agent

Have you watched any of the woods field mech event videos? Those make me kinda want to do it again.

I don't think I have actually, what name is it under? I've seen a little from the UWL but it seemed less woods and more urban. Not sure if that's the norm or not though.

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**RAZRBAKK** · 12-12-2023, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Trbo323

I know how reading works thanks.

My point is that I don't believe buying high end and income are solely tied together. What matters more is how much value the player finds in the marker

This last weekend i just had a guy buy a marker from me who had to wait a few weeks to get it because the first time around the money he had to buy with was his rent money. He was basically ready to get in trouble with his landlord so he could buy a marker. Even two weeks later I have a hard time thinking the money he spent was all of a sudden disposable and couldn't have been used for something else.

He found so much value in what he was buying that he was not using disposable income.

How many tourny bros are buying those high ends on credit? That's not even income of any kind. I don't think I have actually, what name is it under? I've seen a little from the UWL but it seemed less woods and more urban. Not sure if that's the norm or not though.

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You sure? Because you're still arguing a strawman. The very next sentence should clear it up for you.

Originally posted by RAZRBAKK

Who are the rec players that are buying high end guns? The ones with disposable income. For most rec players having the latest high end space gun simply isn't as big of a priority as it is for tournament players.

I also don't believe buying high end and income are solely tied together. But it's a big factor. Most hobbyist players are not out scooping up the next PE or Dye gun as soon as they are released, regardless of what some jackass who can't manage his money almost bought from you.

Most tournament players are shooting something high end that came out in the last 2 years. Again, price being a secondary factor to priority.

**martix_agent** · 12-12-2023, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Trbo323

I know how reading works thanks.

My point is that I don't believe buying high end and income are solely tied together. What matters more is how much value the player finds in the marker

This last weekend i just had a guy buy a marker from me who had to wait a few weeks to get it because the first time around the money he had to buy with was his rent money. He was basically ready to get in trouble with his landlord so he could buy a marker. Even two weeks later I have a hard time thinking the money he spent was all of a sudden disposable and couldn't have been used for something else.

He found so much value in what he was buying that he was not using disposable income.

How many tourny bros are buying those high ends on credit? That's not even income of any kind. I don't think I have actually, what name is it under? I've seen a little from the UWL but it seemed less woods and more urban. Not sure if that's the norm or not though.

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When I was trying to get into 5 man, I was absolutely shocked at how many people were genuinely not doing well with money, and yet were playing paintball at a high level. A handful of them were constantly borrowing gear because they didn't have their own, or were constantly using new guns because they had to sell them off to pay bills.

**martix_agent** · 12-12-2023, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Trbo323

I don't think I have actually, what name is it under? I've seen a little from the UWL but it seemed less woods and more urban. Not sure if that's the norm or not though.

ICPL 10 man i think. some is in woods, some is on hyperball, some is on mounds. It honestly seems like a fun series. Oldschool cold blooded killers are playing it though. they may seem out of shape and "ancient" but they know exactly what they're doing.

**cellophane** · 12-12-2023, 11:15 AM

Casual tournament (D4/5) player here. That is- I am on a team that goes to, and competes in MSXL & NXL tournaments. I however am not able to do all the traveling, hence the casual part. I play in the events I can, show up for practice / play days when I can, and hope to shoot lots of people. That said, I don't care about the pro players or teams. I couldn't tell you who got traded, which teams were relegated, or who won which event. If I happen to remember there is something streaming I might turn it on and watch for a bit, and occasionally watch highlights, but I don't go out of my way. I have a couple fancy spaceguns, but they were all bought second hand and the newest one I have is about 5 years old at this point.

At a field, the (home team) tournament players are a loss leader. People come to the field for a day and see what is going on and it looks cool and exciting, so maybe one or two of them come back next weekend. Over the course of a year that turns into a few people that shift from one-off rec players to regulars. Do we buy way more paint than the rec players? Definitely. However it is frequently at a much lower price, often only a few dollars above cost (depending on the deal worked out with the field), but it helps rotate stock, and falls into the Wallyworld pricing model. Sell lots of things at a low margin vs sell a few things at a high margin; I know several teams that buy paint by the skid. There are also consumables- barrel swabs, pods, Gatorade, pod packs, etc.

That said- I'm also happy to pull out a mech marker or pump and go shoot at rental players. Sometimes I win, sometimes they win. Shooting the 'tournament player' can make a kids day.

Originally posted by Trbo323

For the most part each field plays pretty similar from one point to another. ...
So, all the action is pretty much the same, all the fields are pretty much the same, the gear and rules are always the same. ...
This is why I've always said they need to change something major between each event if they want to increase viewership

Event 1 electro.
Event 2 mech.
Event 3 7 man
Event 4 mag feed
Effect 5 urban field

I've been saying for years that the NXL needs to switch to a limited paint format similar to what Millennium was using. For someone who doesn't know what is going on and trying to watch for the first time it makes the game a lot more understandable. Players are forced to get up and move, rather than camp behind a tower and dump a case of paint down a lane. I know what is going on and more than half of the time I'll see someone walk off the field and have no idea where they got hit from. Case in point- my parents were visiting once and I had on some NXL event and was trying to explain everything to my mom. It was difficult. Switched over to a Millennium event, and suddenly things started clicking.

Switching up the format would be interesting as well. I'd love to see pro players running around with stock class markers on an NXL field.

**Trbo323** · 12-12-2023, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by martix_agent

When I was trying to get into 5 man, I was absolutely shocked at how many people were genuinely not doing well with money, and yet were playing paintball at a high level. A handful of them were constantly borrowing gear because they didn't have their own, or were constantly using new guns because they had to sell them off to pay bills.

This is kind of what I'm getting at. It's not that these players are using disposable income. They are using any means necessary to get the gear that's (either in their minds or actually) required to play the tournament format.

This also can apply to a rec player though, typically the difference is tournament player knows that the Joe Bob invitational tournament starts on X date so he has a deadline while rec player is not as constrained unless placing a deadline on himself for his own reasons (Billy Bobs birthday for example)

Originally posted by cellophane

Casual tournament (D4/5) player here. That is- I am on a team that goes to, and competes in MSXL & NXL tournaments. I however am not able to do all the traveling, hence the casual part. I play in the events I can, show up for practice / play days when I can, and hope to shoot lots of people. That said, I don't care about the pro players or teams. I couldn't tell you who got traded, which teams were relegated, or who won which event. If I happen to remember there is something streaming I might turn it on and watch for a bit, and occasionally watch highlights, but I don't go out of my way. I have a couple fancy spaceguns, but they were all bought second hand and the newest one I have is about 5 years old at this point.

At a field, the (home team) tournament players are a loss leader. People come to the field for a day and see what is going on and it looks cool and exciting, so maybe one or two of them come back next weekend. Over the course of a year that turns into a few people that shift from one-off rec players to regulars. Do we buy way more paint than the rec players? Definitely. However it is frequently at a much lower price, often only a few dollars above cost (depending on the deal worked out with the field), but it helps rotate stock, and falls into the Wallyworld pricing model. Sell lots of things at a low margin vs sell a few things at a high margin; I know several teams that buy paint by the skid. There are also consumables- barrel swabs, pods, Gatorade, pod packs, etc.

That said- I'm also happy to pull out a mech marker or pump and go shoot at rental players. Sometimes I win, sometimes they win. Shooting the 'tournament player' can make a kids day.

So do you consider yourself as more of a rec player, tournament player or basically see no difference in the distinction?

To me at least rec is someone who still plays for the fun of the game whereas tourny bro is in it for the competitive aspect. Not saying that's the only way it should be seen though, just how I make the distinction

Originally posted by cellophane

I've been saying for years that the NXL needs to switch to a limited paint format similar to what Millennium was using. For someone who doesn't know what is going on and trying to watch for the first time it makes the game a lot more understandable. Players are forced to get up and move, rather than camp behind a tower and dump a case of paint down a lane. I know what is going on and more than half of the time I'll see someone walk off the field and have no idea where they got hit from. Case in point- my parents were visiting once and I had on some NXL event and was trying to explain everything to my mom. It was difficult. Switched over to a Millennium event, and suddenly things started clicking.

Switching up the format would be interesting as well. I'd love to see pro players running around with stock class markers on an NXL field.

I never heard of millennium limiting paint, what did they do? And what do you think it was that allowed your mom to understand millennium over nxl?

One of the things about paintball that I think is really forgotten by the tournament scene is that it's a game that requires adaptation. Watching nxl, if the point isn't going well the coach can push a button and throw in the towel. I understand there's also a game clock strategy there but it just feels like, "well, plan A didn't work so let's give up". Whereas your average rec player, sure they can just walk off the field I guess but more than likely they are going to try and figure out plan B on the fly instead

As for switching up gear and formats, that would be throwing that adaptation element back into the tournament scene. I'd love to structure it so the teams would learn how the next tournament is going to play about 2 weeks before hand. This would give them enough time to get any missing gear sorted out and maybe do a little practice. The field layout would always be blind.

This would be a way to see which teams work best as a team regardless of the playing conditions and really that's something I think would be interesting to watch.

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**cellophane** · 12-12-2023, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Trbo323

So do you consider yourself as more of a rec player, tournament player or basically see no difference in the distinction?

To me at least rec is someone who still plays for the fun of the game whereas tourny bro is in it for the competitive aspect. Not saying that's the only way it should be seen though, just how I make the distinction

Maybe a recreational tournament player? I play for the fun, but I definitely enjoy (most of) the competition side of things.

Originally posted by Trbo323

I never heard of millennium limiting paint, what did they do? And what do you think it was that allowed your mom to understand millennium over nxl?

One of the things about paintball that I think is really forgotten by the tournament scene is that it's a game that requires adaptation.
...
As for switching up gear and formats, that would be throwing that adaptation element back into the tournament scene. I'd love to structure it so the teams would learn how the next tournament is going to play about 2 weeks before hand. This would give them enough time to get any missing gear sorted out and maybe do a little practice. The field layout would always be blind.

I couldn't find the official rules, but here is what I found on PBRML:

Millennium Rules: Every player gets 560 paintballs, one 280 round loader, and two 140 round pods. Once on the field players can trade pods and divide the paintballs up however they see fit.
https://www.paintballruinedmylife.co...ormat-in-2016/

For what made it easier to understand-
Typical NXL is everyone heads to their spot and starts shooting lanes. As a back player my job is to shoot a spot, typically a corner, and to keep shooting that corner until something changes. If things work out I'll get a kill off the break, worst case I'm just dumping paint into the general area of the corner and hoping I catch someone sticking out, or catch someone running.
From a spectator standpoint this is extremely boring to watch, and as there are 10 people on the field, kind of hard to figure out why someone just walked off. With limited paint the player shoots their break shot at the corner, then they have to adapt and figure out their move(s) instead of just dumping a case into the corner bunker. You can theoretically play and win an entire NXL match with everyone staying in their starting bunker and not moving (technically possible with Millennium, but not likely.) The forced movement is what makes it both interesting and easier to understand. It is easy to understand that Player A moved to the dorrito (because there wasn't a wall of paint to move through), then popped Player B at the center 50. There is a clear cause and effect.

**jvisconti97** · 12-12-2023, 03:12 PM

I played in tournaments 15ish years ago during the height of the BPS wars and used to follow the tournament scene pretty closely but nowadays I don't even know the names of the major orgs lol. I still enjoy watching old MWAG and Derder videos which are thankfully still up on youtube. I think this forum in particular skews greatly towards the recball/woodsball/pump/old guys demographic but that doesn't mean the scene isn't still a moneymaker for companies. I know personally I haven't purchased a new-from-the-store gun since I was playing tournaments back then. Hell, most of my guns are older than the kids in the tournament scene today! I have, however, bought way too many old guns that I lusted after as a young kid (which I think is very relatable to a lot of us here). The tournament crowd, and the parents of kids who want to be like them, are the ones buying up a majority of the new (and expensive) guns, jerseys, loaders, barrel kits, etc. Why wouldn't they market towards those guys?

On the subject of the current era of tournaments: it seems both the ruleset and the modern crop of top-level guns have really cut down on the excitement for the viewers. It seems like the newest and greatest guns are so similar to each other/produced by the same 3 companies, and all capped to the same speed, that you don't get the hodgepodge of different personalized guns like we used to have. It was fun to see a team of guys with various Shocker set-ups vs a team of Intimidators in a battle of fastest guns and fastest gunslingers. Can the unsponsored team with mix-and-match guns beat the guys sponsored by Angel? Going even further back you had the Cocker vs Automag Wars, etc. You'd root for the guys that shot the same gun as you or you'd root for teams that had the coolest style. The homogenous nature of the current tournament scene removes that aspect which is a bummer. On the other hand, I have to admit that new guns have gotten so good that there isn't a need for customization or different styles anymore. If tournament paintball guns were racecars we've gone from IMSA to INDY. Check out the 1998 Skyball tournament on Youtube for a great example of what I mean (plus an overload of nostalgia lmao).

One tournament that I love checking out is the ICPL. 10 man, mech only, and played on various fields (hyperball, woodsball, mounds, and a mix). Brings me back to the time I had the most fun playing and the ruleset tends to allow for a greater mix of guns/styles. I'd love to see that style of tournament become more popular, I'd absolutely get 9 more old guys together to play again if they had similar set-ups locally.

**Trbo323** · 12-13-2023, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by cellophane

Maybe a recreational tournament player? I play for the fun, but I definitely enjoy (most of) the competition side of things.

I couldn't find the official rules, but here is what I found on PBRML:

For what made it easier to understand-
Typical NXL is everyone heads to their spot and starts shooting lanes. As a back player my job is to shoot a spot, typically a corner, and to keep shooting that corner until something changes. If things work out I'll get a kill off the break, worst case I'm just dumping paint into the general area of the corner and hoping I catch someone sticking out, or catch someone running.
From a spectator standpoint this is extremely boring to watch, and as there are 10 people on the field, kind of hard to figure out why someone just walked off. With limited paint the player shoots their break shot at the corner, then they have to adapt and figure out their move(s) instead of just dumping a case into the corner bunker. You can theoretically play and win an entire NXL match with everyone staying in their starting bunker and not moving (technically possible with Millennium, but not likely.) The forced movement is what makes it both interesting and easier to understand. It is easy to understand that Player A moved to the dorrito (because there wasn't a wall of paint to move through), then popped Player B at the center 50. There is a clear cause and effect.

Thanks for all the explanations. I might have to look up some more millennium footage that makes a lot of sense

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**zinger565** · 12-13-2023, 05:57 AM

Every hobby ever is marketed towards the perceived peak of performance.

Fishing? Here's the rod/reel/tackle/boat the pros use.

Cars? Here's how to make 1000hp and blow your axle to bits.

Gaming? Here's the latest top of the line graphics card and $1k monitor even though one that's 5 years old will work just fine.

Sure, you'll still find marketing aimed towards the middle and lower end of the price scale, but that's not what those companies want you to buy.

Personally, it feels like the high-end marker tech is reaching/has reached a plateau of sorts. Which is boring for innovation, but great for players who don't need the latest and greatest. You can get 97% of today's performance with a 5 year old marker at 50% of the cost. And that performance translates whether you're playing speedball, or in the woods. Efficiency is Efficiency. Reliability is Reliability.

**Riot** · 12-13-2023, 09:00 AM

LANES BROOOO SHOOOTINGG LANEEESSSSS.

Tournament play comes with a LOT of small dick energy.

**Drunkscriblerian** · 12-14-2023, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Chuck E Ducky

Whens the last time you purchased a new marker?….

Uh....that'd be 1996.

Is it me or... (tournament scene observation)

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