Forgotten or underutilized paintball concepts.

[Nish]

We used to play a lot of hopper ball.
Anyone using a stick feed or smaller hopper (mags I guess too but we didn't have anyone that did that in the group at the time) could carry what they wanted to get up to about 200 rounds.
Did some people look for bigger hoppers. Yeah. Did those games still have a different feel and culture to them. Absolutely.

[MrBarraclough]

Grew up playing outlaw hopper ball in the 90s. That was fun. Taught us not to waste paint. The hopper-only rule was to make it affordable to everyone.

[Jsc5150]

Mixed class formats-

For example, 3man with 1 pump, 1 mech , 1 electro player each.

For woods and speedball

[EvilCreature]

Other underutilized concepts...

Sup'air ball bunkers. Not their use in general, but seriously, it's been the exact same field since like 2005. Row of doritoes on one side, snake on the other, 3 tall things in the back, a big thing in the middle, and a smattering of small thing in-between. Over and over and over again. I would LOVE to show up at a field and there wasn't a snake at all. Or the doritoes were anywhere else. Or there was a big wide lane right down the middle from dead box to dead box. Just something different. Or heck, instead of a mirrored symmetry, how about a rotational symmetry? Each side of the field would be exactly the same as the other from the payers point of view.

Also, air bunkers make absolutely wonderful objective markers and quick and dirty forts for woodsball. That left tape line a little sparce and more of a trap than a good path? Well now it's filled in and much stronger. Also, fun trick, stick a single small brick or aztec in the middle of an open clearing surrounded by good cover. Good woodball players will recognize it as a trap, but certain players will trip over each other trying to get to it. Quite funny to watch.

Or really any hybrid of field concepts. Most modern fields are disappointingly homogenous. The air ball field is only air ball bunkers. The hyperball field is only hyperball tubes. The urban field is only buildings and walls. Heck the barrel field has only barrels. Mix it up a little.

Also, don't be afraid to combine smaller fields. One local place used to occasionally drop the net between two air ball fields for 15+ on 15+ games. Corner to corner or 50 side to 50 side, didn't even have to rearrange the bunkers.

I have to say, field layouts get really odd now and then. They have done some flipped symmetry things, made very "artistic" snake/dorrito/center configurations, etc.

Over at Annandale they sometimes open up the concept, city, and airball fields so you can play across each type over the course of a game - makes it kind of fund because the middle airball field is easy to reconfigure.

[Fubarius]

I do like some of those design better than most fields I find. Especially the flipped ones, those look super fun. Though on all the others there's still this incessant need to make sure one side is clearly the "D side". I would love for the style to completely change every year or so, so a 2023 field would look nothing like a 2025 field, with say one year the doritoes are all on the back row and the later year they're clustered at the middle. The bottom left design is closest to what I would do for a standard mirrored design, just with most of the doritoes swapped with the aztecs. But they are at least off the tape line. Cool stuff.

[BigBalla23]

At our local field, low number vs high number games don't happen often. I miss attack and defend games, with an objective and unlimited respawns to both sides. Would be like 20% of players on defense, pending defensibility of the structure etc. Was always fun, but here, seems to have gone the way of the dodo. I get the why from the field owner perspective, but I still miss it.

[MrBarraclough]

We often play attack and defend games with evenly matched teams, but uneven numbers of respawns. Often its unlimited respawns for the attackers and only one or two for the defenders. Play the games in pairs. If the attackers win the first game, note the time and flip the teams around. The attackers in the second game have to beat the time set by the first game attackers to win.

[uv_halo]

Every so often my mind wanders to some concept that I feel the rest of the game has forgotten, or could utilize more in creative ways. Some technical, some not.


For example, a regulated CO2 tank...

Next, the rimfire bolt...

I suspect the issues with CO2 is that it still allow for gas pressure (post reg) to rise due to air temp. That and how liquid can flow through a regulator and then turn into 850PSI gas.

I suspect that the pressure/flow pulse incoming to the breech area at a 90deg angle is less efficient than a pressure/flow pulse travelling inline with the bore. How much less? I don't know but, it is telling that nearly every design after those initial ones aim for an inline flow.

[MrBarraclough]

Yeah, regulated CO2 needs a pretty robust anti-siphon setup in order to have much point. There was a hot minute in the late 90s in which I ran a 20oz CO2 on a remote line to a Bob Long Power Reg in a VASA on my Automag. The remote had an expansion chamber at the bottle end. That was the most consistent and well-behaved air system my mag ever had pre-HPA.

[uv_halo]

Woodsball capture the flag (not bunkers in the woods, just natural terrain). Old school shoot less sneak more. It has such a different feel to it and should be used more.

100% + see my reply below


Fubarius,

I think what paintball really needs to do is focus on the experience. Shooting a paintball gun itself is not exciting beyond someone's first 100 shots, I'd argue that somewhere beyond that point, it gets disappointing due to the projectile. I'd think the first incoming 100shots (in a slow semi, or pump game) are more exciting (but, not necessarily desired). So, with those out of the way, what is left in your everyday speedball in the woods (where everyone sees each other at the beginning of the map especially)? Running? Snapshooting with imperfectly flying projectiles? Taking cover? Rinse and repeat until the game is done. Maybe you get a positive team experience (developing and executing a strategy) but with random walk-ons it's 100% your mileage may vary.

So, how can you sell an experience? Venues (like the old CPX park) can certainly help but, if the game format is standard elimination, meh. My favorite example of selling an experience was Warplay paintball. A relatively small park. They had four playing areas and they were distinctly built out to be asymmetrical. One was based around a footbridge, another on a military grade watch tower (with a surrounding wall), another was inspired by the old Halo King of the Hill map.

Every playing area featured a different mission. Cross the bridge (the only place to cross the field) and grab a flag. Enter the tower and ring a bell. Escort the VIP (across all of the playing areas). And the last game of the day, king of the hill, have a man survive in the central ring for two minutes, with symmetrical respawns.

The way they ran the games were not tilted towards children. They allowed full auto, (their rental was an A-5 with RT, and they provided instruction how to shoot it) they allowed blind fire, they sold baking soda+paint grenades, they had asymmetric re-spawns (attackers re-spawned 2x as fast as the defenders), they'd have someone shooting a paintball mortar (cups of paintballs) into the target area. They gave a very thorough safety brief, pointing out that if you don't want to be shot point blank, don't be in a building. They had some of the best refs I've ever seen (jump right into check a player regardless of incoming fire, and put themselves between eliminated players and the opposition) and they weren't even all adults, and sometimes they (refs) used shields.

The college kids and military folks (at a nearby base) loved it. I used to drive over an hour to play there, pay a hefty fee (to bring my own paint), They were selling a 'war game' experience. They put a lot of thought and effort into the field before they even ran their first game. They're still around but, with the the economic downturn followed by Covid, they pivoted primarily to the open source laser tag (mil grade), again they aren't selling 'paintball'. They're selling an experience.

In other words, don't sell the experience of shooting a paintball (or being shot by one), sell the experience of a scenario, a mission, etc, whatever the mission, the paintball (and the associated gun) are the tools of the mission, not the point.

[MrKittyCatMeowFace]

Uncapped FPS/BPS games. I understand you gotta limit fps to like under 350. But man it would be cool to play once. You would have to be pretty "tuned up" to take the pain. XD

[Fossilhead]

Nope! None of that 350!

[uv_halo]

I get what you're saying but, does anyone want to have to replace their lens after one hit?

On the role of pain in paintball: Pain is necessary because that is the lowest common denominator for s shot to catch someone's attention when their adrenalin is flowing, and even then its not a guaranty. To get closer to a 100% chance, that's what simunation is for.

[Ecapnation]

Forgotten and underutilized?

Sounds like current state of AGD if you ask me!

[Spaghetti Overdrive]

Creative valvetrains and bolt engines that aren't particularly focused on a "best".

Tri tubes, reverse ram/valve arrangement, MQ-esque valves, etc.

I draw out tritube layouts all the time and think that there is absolutely a world in which those can exist and do well alongside the modern offerings.

Also, poppets with enclosed top tubes!!

Rambolt cockers (powerlyte hybrid) and evil omen style guns (minus that bullshit feed system)

[Spaghetti Overdrive]

update - just found the efficiency test post where all the most efficient guns were tritubes. Having a viking and gat I can also attest to how smooth they are

i reverse my position - we should get back to making valvetrains and bolt engines that are focused on a "best"

[Spaghetti Overdrive]

other underutilized idea: changing from 12g to 32 or 36g carts

You can still enjoy stock class all the same, but with far less waste and less time changing out the carts. I think that's super worth! Something like 50-75 shots from a cart for a nominal weight increase on something like a duck or phantom would be incredible. Imagine only going through like 3-5 of those per 500 balls.

Also, cartridge-in-stocks. Not turret changer, but more like the ICD changer. Having 2-3 of those 36s in series would effectively be a whole day's worth of play without needing to carry extra carts nor resorting to a tank.

[Ecapnation]

Powerlyte Hybrids were not ram bolt..... They had a ram built into the body on the side.

Sovereigns afaik the only ram bolt gun

[Pyrate Jim]

A lot of swing and a miss ideas in paintball sure do seem to be based around puffs of air. I remember some hopper that used an air line tapped into the side of a blowback, or spliced into one of an autocockers LP hoses, that used the air pulse to flip a small ramp inside of the hopper. Really just jostled the balls more than properly agitate them, so it fizzled into obscurity.

I tried one of those at a store once. The concept explained to me was the burst of air into the feedneck would blow the next ball into the breech faster.
It was a then new PV Shocker, the one with the micro jack on the side for a remote trigger.
Another forgotten innovation.

Remember burst discs you could replace? Not the whole nut, just the little brass disc.
Problem with those was you could inadvertently install two or more, making the safety factor useless.

[Chuck E Ducky]

My CP tank reg was that way. Still have it and it still works flawlessly. I did have them rebuild it for free mind you like 15 years ago.

[Blackmagic71]

How about this unholy cross between a shotgun and grenade launcher?

Encountered it at Oklahoma D-day around 2006(ish). A bunch of paintballs (maybe 25-30) were placed between Dixie cups or something to keep things together then blasted out as a group. Not sure how they chronoed the thing, but I did see it out on the field.

https://youtu.be/F9I76NXdRdY?si=fMBZUoF4MEYlQMMJ

EDIT: Longer video here. Apparently it chronos just fine.

https://youtu.be/vNQOKnES1_o?si=RO840kco5zgM5tew

[Ecapnation]

How about this unholy cross between a shotgun and grenade launcher?

Encountered it at Oklahoma D-day around 2006(ish). A bunch of paintballs (maybe 25-30) were placed between Dixie cups or something to keep things together then blasted out as a group. Not sure how they chronoed the thing, but I did see it out on the field.

https://youtu.be/F9I76NXdRdY?si=fMBZUoF4MEYlQMMJ

EDIT: Longer video here. Apparently it chronos just fine.

https://youtu.be/vNQOKnES1_o?si=RO840kco5zgM5tew

They were an actual company they either went out of business or shifted to less than lethal though

[Chemical-x.....ahain]

How about this unholy cross between a shotgun and grenade launcher?

Encountered it at Oklahoma D-day around 2006(ish). A bunch of paintballs (maybe 25-30) were placed between Dixie cups or something to keep things together then blasted out as a group. Not sure how they chronoed the thing, but I did see it out on the field.

https://youtu.be/F9I76NXdRdY?si=fMBZUoF4MEYlQMMJ

EDIT: Longer video here. Apparently it chronos just fine.

https://youtu.be/vNQOKnES1_o?si=RO840kco5zgM5tew

I get around a 4 foot spread at 30 feet.

[Chemical-x.....ahain]

It does indeed but most launchers of the same ID should be compliant for the most part. the only issue may be getting the shell to stay in place. but a layer or two of tape should get it to fit snug. It wont fit in the M203 but even thats just because the bore is pretty tight on the tippmann launcher.

[Chuck E Ducky]

That’s cool! I want to try one. How many paintballs it hold? You double / Triple stack them?

[Chemical-x.....ahain]

seven per stack, 35 round shot.

[scottieb]

Dead man's walk, a controversial classic.

[Chuck E Ducky]

It just leads to everyone getting shot more that’s out. Now everyone walking off is a threat. I got surrendered like that before I passed on shooting the guy point blank several times. By the end of the day it progressed into a ton of problems. Everyone was getting overshot even new players who had no idea why. It’s fun messing with your friends but events that allow it always turns into an issue.

[Cunha]

Chuck is right. It's contrary to the nature of the game and creates an unsafe environment. No good operator allows such tactics. Like pretending to be a cameraman or medical staff.

[Hp_lovecraft]

We used to play a lot of hopper ball.

Some of the best memories I've had in the last 40 years has been hopperball games. At the fields I worked at, I'd often have them play hopperball for the last, or last couple games of the day. Certaintly its still a thing, But it prob should be more widespread. It solves many of the reasons that paintball is dying.

imo, a big problem with paintball is the cost to play, and newer players tired out getting shot up by more experienced players. Paintball has long been killing enough by creating a very "high barrier to entry". Some fields will have low-impact games for the newbs, like low-fps, or 50-bal, or gel-ball. Those are all lame, and missing the fear-factor. What really hooked me back in the 80s was how slightly terryfying it was.

But, I know that paintball is in the business of selling paintballs. So its a tough sell.

oh, and obviously siphon tanks is the best forgotten tech. haha

[Spaghetti Overdrive]

Paintball, lounge every business, is in the business of making money. Treating the whole thing as reliant on a single variable makes it as poorly managed as a coal power plant.

There's a lot of ways to make money and in order to get long term revenue you have to try harder than push as many paintballs to each person on each visit as possible.

Concessions, merch, rentals, education (refs training small groups of rentals in sessions), scenario events, cross marketing, consignment, etc

[The Jayster]

The commenter above me nailed it. 100%.