Automag Style Level 10 for Modern Mag Fed Pistols - TiPX, TPX, FSC, T8

[nak81783]

I like the idea of playing with a pistol as a way of mixing up play style. However, my TiPX had to use tougher paint (had to survive at least one bounce from shoulder height on concrete), and even with such paint it was best to keep it 270fps or less. Without doing so, it would frequently break paint. It seems this is quite common on these blow forward style pistols. In the less-lethal market, it mostly doesn't matter if you're shooting plastic, steel, or rubber balls, although I have heard the pepper balls can break in the "launcher", but not as easily as paintballs.

Has anyone tried creating something similar to an Automag Level 10 in a blow forward paintball pistol? I understand there's probably not much of a market, but pistols being hard on paint is one of the top complaints I hear over and over about them.

If I ever get to finish my Gamma Core pump, this may be next on the list, but I wanted to check if anyone has done it already.

Thanks.

[Jonnydread]

Anecdotally I feel like the issues is the magazine feed rather than the bolt system. From my understanding the TipX is a compact version of the TCR, and when I had a TCR and shot it with the hopper attachment it seemed to be very gentle on paint. Somewhere between the spring feeding and the squishing of internals into a compact frame it really ups the chance for paint breakage. Any time I've shot a magfed pistols with roundball it's been a sticky situation.

I wonder thought if modding the loading ramping to make it so that the bolt doesn't move forward until the ball has fully and gently entered the receiver could help to reduce the chance of the feeding mechanism pre-breaking the ball so that it bursts in the barrel.

[nak81783]

It’s a fair point that mag fed can be harder on paint due to the way it loads, but I’ve single loaded balls and FSRs into the TiPX I had (shooting it upside down), and the drop test and velocity criteria previously mentioned holds true.

As further anecdotal evidence that it’s the blow forward bolt being hard on paint, my EMF100 rarely breaks paint, and that’s feeding with a CF20 - more balls in the stack under stronger compression. The Gamma Core’s multi-stage bolt acceleration is just easier on paint. That’s what I want to achieve with the modern mag fed pistols. The TiPX looks like it will be easier, at least at first glance, since the bolt doesn’t do any sealing.

[uv_halo]

I never did magfed with roundball, but I did run a Qloader for some time, so take this with a grain of salt. If the first shot fires fine, and the 2nd or later shots have a problem, it could be a matter of more than 1 full round making making it in front of the bolt. This fraction of a round gets clipped by the bolt which at best pushes it downward against the ball/follower stack. This problem will get worse with more time under compression, i.e. magazines that don't disengage spring tension when not in the mag well (i.e. Tiberius 8/9x magazines). This gets further compounded under warmer/humid weather which softens gelatin. This problem is reduced with thicker paint, and magazines that don't store their paint under compression. Something else that contributes to this is smaller diameter paint, or lopsided balls,, even at the same compression level, (i.e. .670 vs .685) causes a similar problem.

[CustomPaintballMarkers]

As for your TiPX, if you’re running it at 275 FPS, it’s best to use 3-Star in warm or hot weather and 2-Star in cool or cold weather. I’ve found that my FSC is extremely hard on paint, but when it works, it really is top tier as a sidearm or secondary. Sometimes I’ll run six mags with my main and eight mags with it as my secondary.
Look for magfed paint if possible, but stay away from premium paint if you’re using Tippmanns or magfed gear. If you’re looking for a good pistol, I’d personally suggest the .43 caliber ones. I own an M&P9, Glock, PPQ, TPM1, P226, Deagle, and a RAM Combat. The newer Umarex ones are top tier compared to the older RAP4 models.

[nak81783]

As for your TiPX, if you’re running it at 275 FPS, it’s best to use 3-Star in warm or hot weather and 2-Star in cool or cold weather. I’ve found that my FSC is extremely hard on paint, but when it works, it really is top tier as a sidearm or secondary. Sometimes I’ll run six mags with my main and eight mags with it as my secondary.
Look for magfed paint if possible, but stay away from premium paint if you’re using Tippmanns or magfed gear. If you’re looking for a good pistol, I’d personally suggest the .43 caliber ones. I own an M&P9, Glock, PPQ, TPM1, P226, Deagle, and a RAM Combat. The newer Umarex ones are top tier compared to the older RAP4 models.

Thank you for the comments and suggestions.

Since paint can vary so much from batch to batch, I use a shoulder height drop test to quantify it. If it breaks on the first bounce, it isn't a good paint for the TiPX. Anything more than 3 bounces will have lots of bounces off opponents.

As you pointed out, in colder weather (50F is about the crossover point that I've found), to stay in that 1-3 bounce zone, I typically have to switch to a field grade or winter paint.

I shot tournament paint from NXL Cincinnati out of my EMF100 yesterday just fine. I didn't go to the tournament; the local field bought some of the leftover paint. So mag fed can be relatively gentle on paint, but pistols and lower end mag fed stuff are notoriously hard on paint.

I had an Umarex Walther PPQ in .43 cal. I couldn't get through a full mag without breaking paint. They are not easy to clean. But yes, those would be ideal for their smaller size.

I'm hoping my custom TiPX mods will make it close to the EMF100 in terms of paint handling. We'll see...

[CustomPaintballMarkers]

Which paint are you using for your PPQ? There are soft tip bolts for the TipX

[nak81783]

Umarex T4E .43 cal paint.

Soft tip bolts usually either 1) reduce velocity, so you just have to increase the pressure and hit the ball with a higher pressure blast to get the same velocity or 2) do nothing to help with breaking paint, sometimes both.

[nak81783]

Just to close the loop on this, I've only been partially successful with a "Level 10" for a TiPX. Setting the stock marker to 280 fps, I swapped in the parts I made without changing the regulator setting. The bolt stopped on partially loaded paintballs and FSRs. However, due to the extra parts taking up volume in the dump chamber and restricting flow, it was only shooting at 220fps. I know the Automag Level 10 requires a bit more pressure to operate than a Level 7, but the three TiPXs I've had (and one other I worked on) are cranky if you bump them up much past 280 fps on the stock (non-TCR) parts.

I'm calling it quits on this one.

[vijil]

It's a shame.

Paintball pistols never really got the RnD they deserved.

[nak81783]

OK, I lied. Another idea popped into my head, so I'll work on it a bit more.

If this idea works, not only will it be easier on paint, but it won't require the bolt spring. The spring is why it needs so much blow forward force, and since spring force builds up with compression distance, the initial movement (when there is the least spring compression distance) when it hits the ball is rough on paint. The downside is there will need to be some parts protruding out the back of the marker, I think less than an inch, probably about the same as a remote line adapter, but I need to finish modeling to get an exact length.

I did some tests to see how much I could obstruct the stock powertube configuration before velocity started decreasing at a given pressure (reg setting), and the part I need to run through the length of the powertube for my new idea has less cross-sectional surface area than the obstruction that reduced velocity at a given pressure. I'm hoping this obstruction/velocity logic holds true with the test parts.

Paintball pistols are already relatively big for pistols, and this new idea adds more length out the back. Basically, I'll be creating a Gamma Core length action (Don't get excited. I'm not expected Gamma Core performance.) moved further backwards in the marker, such that magazines can still be loaded in the grip.

I also rediscovered the issues with CO2. Using a vertical CO2 tank with remote line (little to no liquid entering the marker), the stock marker is pretty stable. Using 12 grams (positioned horizontally in the marker), I can only assume liquid is entering the marker and getting past the reg. At a given reg setting and on 12 grams, it'll go from 275fps to 220fps (at which point I was thinking the 12 gram is being depleted) and up over 300+fps for 6+ shots (I guess the 12 gram wasn't depleted) depending on how fast I shoot the marker. I was able to repeat this with the TPX and TiPX with multiple 12 grams in each. I'm using Umarex 12 grams.

[Myrkul]

Have you tried beveling the bolt tips? I kinda suspect these things are just clipping the small paint because the ball stack is under spring tension. I put about 1,000 rounds through my thunder cat with a beveled tip last weekend and didn't break a single ball, and the paint was so fragile it typically took 4 shots to explode inside a rotor....Thunder cats aren't exactly gentle on paint either. I suspect the bolt geometry is just flat out wrong for the smaller modern paint.

Worth a shot anyway. The beveled tips have worked phenomenally in my automags too.

I think it would be a lot easier to just stick the bolt in a lathe and aggressively sand it so it's beveled and try that out instead of redesigning the entire level 10 system and forcing it into a Tipx.

[nak81783]

The bolts have a pretty good chamfer on them already. As previously mentioned, I've single loaded paintballs and FSRs into the breech without a magazine, shooting the marker upside down, to avoid magazine and ball stack/clipping issues, and they're still hard on paint and FSRs.

[Myrkul]

Have you checked for burs or defects in the breech anywhere? My memory is failing me at the moment but I think there was a user on here years ago that found a pretty significant burr inside the breech of his Tipx and that is what was actually causing the majority of his issues.

[nak81783]

That may have been me. I had burrs on the bolt face of my first TiPX (which I sold). Sanding them helped a lot with shooting field grade paint, but mid-grade paint was always iffy.

Basically, the paint had to survive at least one bounce on concrete from shoulder height to have a chance at being shot out of the TiPX without breaking.

The two I’m working with now are different markers than that first one, but they have the same paint breaking issues. I’ve done all the things to these two that helped with the first one.

I’ve learned more with these two. I also worked on a friend’s a while back, so that’s a 4th data point. I should probably go back through my old posts to correct premature conclusions and summarize everything in chronological order.

[nak81783]

I think I'm on to something here - a springless TPX/TiPX that seems like it'll be a lot easier on paint. The con is the purple cylinder sticking out the back of the marker, about the same length as a remote line adapter.

3d printed parts provided about 3 dozen shots before failing. The bolt pinches about 1.5x as hard as an Emek, but I can probably make that lighter by changing the oring size on the back of the blue shaft. It was shooting a little bit faster than the same reg setting with the stock internals.

I'll post the pics for now and add comments when I have time later. I think it's time to get some parts machined.

Edit: Comments and pics of back of marker added.

Pic 1: Trigger forward. Air supplied to both channels. Spool pushed forward. Powertube sealed. Bolt back.

Pic 2: Trigger pulled. Air vented from rear channel. Spool moves backwards. Powertube opened. Bolt still back (momentarily, transitions forward between 2 and 3).

Pic 3. Trigger pulled. Air still vented from rear channel. Spool still back. Powertube still open. Dump chamber air pushes bolt forward with forward force partially cancelled out by oring on back of blue shaft. Marker fires when bolt powertube oring clears tip of powertube.

Pic 4. Trigger forward. Air supplied to both channels. Spool moves forward. Powertube sealed. Bolt still forward (momentarily, transitions backward between 4 and 1).

Go back to Pic 1 (bolt gets pushed back) and repeat.