I'm in Pfizer's COVID vaccine trial, ask me anything.

[CrowsFeast]

The philosophical question is, what level of compromise to our Bill of Rights act would be justified? Note it's completely irrelevant how safe the vaccine is considered from a medical rights perspective. There are discussions here about making the vaccine compulsory, which would directly violate established law and set a worrying precedent.

"There's always another way"
Some places found a 'dangling carrot' approach. I think there was one 'state lottery' where everyone who got a does had a chance to win a million dollars (or some such). I heard about another program that was something along the lines of "joints for jabs" (I'm not even sure if this one was run by the government).

There's still people who are either on the fence or simply apathetic. A carrot may be all they need to fall on the side of vaccination and it may even be enough to hit herd immunity; so there's no longer a reason for the government to reach for a stick.

[vijil]

Yes, I think this is the best way to go. If you're using the stick, you just generate problems that will pop up later. Banning/forcing stuff tends not to work long term.

I don't think it'll be enough for herd immunity though, see: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

[vijil]

One recent issue was the Wuhan lab theory. I don't know how things went down over there, but here it was something like this:

Initially, it was a legit theory
Then, it was considered unlikely
Then, anyone who raised it was denounced as a racist and a conspiracy nut by our media. The same media who have taken it upon themselves to run cover for our govt.
Now... oh look, it's a legit theory again !? Likely, even.

Meanwhile our govt have been caught outright lying to us on several other issues, so govt trust is generally low. Now if the theory had just been in the "that's not what we currently think" pile then ok, but it was put firmly in the "you're a racist" pile (or at least perceived to be such, which is enough), and that's pissed people off.

So the problem here in NZ (dunno about you all) is that the right/conservatives have legitimate reasons to distrust both the government and our mainstream news media. This is probably part of the general polarisation and gradual destabilisation of the western world right now. I'd say western culture has 50-100 years left, but that's just me.

I think our odds of getting to herd immunity are near-zero, and as I said, I think the only hope for those who can't be vaccinated will be advancements in treatment options.

[Diomedes]

"joints for jabs"

Washington state. Gotta love the PNW.

Unrelated, latest numbers out of NJ:

4,432,769 fully vaccinated individuals
3,474 COVID+ cases among the fully vaccinated (99.92% effective)
84 COVID-related hospitalizations among the fully vaccinated (99.998% effective)
31 COVID-related deaths among the fully vaccinated (99.9993% effective)

Pandemic's over if you're vaccinated, y'all.

[vijil]

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

Like I say, I think a combination of effective treatments + vaccines for those that can be convinced = the only reasonable solution. Herd immunity is almost certainly a dead end. Current estimates say it's a good 7 years before we're back to something like "normal".

[lhamilton1807]

So the problem here in NZ (dunno about you all) is that the right/conservatives have legitimate reasons to distrust both the government and our mainstream news media. This is probably part of the general polarisation and gradual destabilisation of the western world right now.

You can still mistrust the government and the mainstream media but still trust (and receive) the vaccine. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Mistrusting the government is natural and even helpful - otherwise it would act entirely unchecked. I just can’t find any legit scientific or moral reasons to not get the vaccine. If you can, try setting your political misgivings aside and just look at the science. The numbers come from private industry as well, and they’re telling the same story. The vaccines work, and the more dangerous option for you and society is to remain unvaccinated. This is on clear display in the US right now - the virus is picking up primarily in pockets where vaccination rates are low. My heart goes out to those poor communities that chose mistrust of the government over good data.

I think our odds of getting to herd immunity are near-zero, and as I said, I think the only hope for those who can't be vaccinated will be advancements in treatment options.

You’re right, we won’t likely hit herd immunity any time soon, if at all. I’d still prefer to try to get as many protected as possible. It just seems like the right thing to do. Diomedes just posted the most recent numbers - treatment after infection will never be that effective, especially when hospitals get overcrowded, short-staffed, and overworked. Treatments are only as good as the health of the systems and staff that can administer them.

[vijil]

Oh I get it - they're not mutually exclusive. Fellow conservative Christian white male here. I'm looking at this from a marketing and consumer behaviour perspective to understand the scenario. In the minds of most folks, govt can't be trusted, and this is something govt are telling us to do, therefore it can't be trusted. Nuance is not a strong suit for average person who doesn't really care that much.

That's extremely unlikely to change. In fact I'd put the odds of people putting aside their distrust of govt in great numbers at somewhere near zero.

It's the people on the fence who you target marketing at.

[lhamilton1807]

Agreed. And that saddens me.

[Axel]

So once the vaccines get full, non-emergency approval in a couple of months we’re gonna be good? Cmon, we all know that isn’t the case. People will find some other excuse.

100%

Edit: The "propaganda" that's out there is on the anti-vax side. Stuff you mention, Toestr, is not propaganda; that's a public health campaign.

Heh. *History professor time* "Propaganda" doesn't have to be inherently good or bad, true or false--it's just that the term is heavily used in the context of Joseph Goebbels and the Nazis. Goebbels was, among other things, the Minister of Propaganda (official title) and directly spoke about it in some of his speeches, because the term didn't have such a negative connotation until he gave it one.

So yes, a public health campaign technically meets the definition of "propaganda"

If we didn't move the goalposts as we learn stuff, we'd still be killing people by using ventilators the wrong way for this disease.

I would like more information on this point, please.

At the end of the day, there are only a few outcomes, ultimately. Largescale, either a sufficient number of people are vaccinated that the pandemic ends, or the vaccinated people can more or less go back to normal, while the unvaccinated still face an ongoing pandemic. Individually, given how transmissible some of the new variants are (the vaccines still confer excellent protection against all the variants so far, btw), the choice comes down to three options: vaccination, infection, or indefinite pretty stringent masking/isolation/etc (or, likely, some combination). The important thing is that, individually, once you're vaccinated, you can exhale and basically not worry about it. And once you, your family, your kids are all vaccinated, you can really exhale. The only problem at that point is people who can't get vaccinated. The only way to end the pandemic for them is for everyone else to get covered. So get vaccinated, please.

Guess what folks? Gov Hogan ended the state of emergency in Maryland today because in the entire month of June, 100% of Covid deaths were among the unvaccinated. It works. Get the prick, don't be one.

[Diomedes]

RE ventilators, one of the hallmarks of COVID is REALLY low blood O2. Usually, this feels REALLY bad, because CO2 accumulates and you feel short of breath, etc, bc it's actually the CO2 your body detects by monitoring blood pH (the CO2 forms carbonic acid when it dissolves). But with COVID, the CO2 levels would be fine, so blood O2 would be super low without any "symptoms". So early treatment once blood O2 got sufficiently low was ventilation at high pressure to saturate the blood with O2. But the pressures damaged the COVID-infected lungs further, actually causing higher mortality. We figured out, over those early months, that it was better in most cases to treat with supplemental oxygen, but NOT at high pressure. Just more O2. Figuring that out was a HUGE step in reducing mortality rates.

[sniper97]

As for trusting companies, Johnson and Johnson just recalled their sunscreen. Let's not forget Baby Powder/Talc.

I previously posted a Senate heating from 11/19/2020 super established doctors described how to treat Covid-19 in early stages with success, which we are still not doing at all.

There are multiple posts with how the mRNA vaccine is safe, this has never been used until the last 10 months in tests. Emergency use is only used it there are no other treatment (hense the overlooked early treatment methods).

There is a self reported Covid death/issue website, posted 10,000 US deaths and 15,000 European deaths.

To the pro-vaxers, please offer proof in the form of articles and case studies.

Also amazed how the news from Israel is very much different from the US news, issues with the vaccine and number of problems.

My understanding is that a vaccine goes thru 7 yrs of tests before it is released and a small number of deaths cancel its use. The vaccines have been studied for 10 months. What about long term affects?

I am not here to scare people, I will take the word of 2 established doctors over our govt.

I hope it is safe and that lives are saved by it.

[lhamilton1807]

RE early treatments, the video you posted (https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/hearing...id-19-solution) is over 2hrs long. It’s a bit much to ask the forum to respond in brief to 2 hours of dry testimony 😉 Could you identify specific effective treatments that weren’t in wide use then that still aren’t today?

RE J&J and Big Pharma, yeah I get it. There are a lot of reasons not to trust pharmaceutical companies. Settlements are just coming down for the opioid issue as well - thanks for the addictions, guys. BUT there’s a difference, I think, between one-dose vaccines, which have a phenomenal track record from what I understand, and long-term medications that often treat symptoms rather than the root cause. I’m not aware of any vaccines that have a danger of long term problems. No, the autism<>vaccine link isn’t a thing. Plenty of links available for that if you want them. Vaccines are meant to deal with the root of the problem by preventing the disease in the first place. An effective vaccine that passes the safety controls (phases) will prevent more damage than early treatment. If you need early treatment you’ve already been spreading the disease and your body has already been injured. Obviously neither is likely the case if you’re vaccinated.

So yeah, we need better treatments for those who are ill, but it’ll never be as effective as preventing the infection in the first place.

[sniper97]

Start at 18 minutes into the video, watch both medical doctors. Zinc, Vitamin D, Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin. The one Dr has
50 yrs experience and is top of his field, his advise is ignored.

Supposedly donated blood in Indiana from Fall 2019 and covid antibodies were found.

[Axel]

Another question!

Anecdotally, I've heard a lot of people speculate that they had Covid in February 2020, January, even December or November 2019. Initially I was sceptical, but as more evidence comes out it seems the virus might have been generally circulating earlier than initially detected. Thoughts? Was there a spike in RSV, pneumonia, etc., In late 2019ish that may have actually been Covid?

[Diomedes]

Yeah, I remember a nasty respiratory thing went around like late '19 early '20, and initially I thought the same thing. The timing mostly works. SARS-CoV-2 was definitely in Italy by December of '19, and NYC shortly thereafter, so Jan/Fed would definitely be possible for an initial round or two of cases that weren't recognized for what they were before we hit the critical mass with the huge March-April wave. I think it's possible, but not likely, because while it seems like the illness, whatever it was, led to some of the same symptoms (tightness in the lungs, prolonged cough, etc.), the mortality rate wasn't anywhere near comparable to COVID, so I think it was probably a coincidence.

[Diomedes]

There are multiple posts with how the mRNA vaccine is safe, this has never been used until the last 10 months in tests.

This is simply not true. mRNA vaccines have been in development for a decade, if not more. During that time, where were a number of phase 1 trials, which is *just* a safety trial. So we don't have 10 months of safety data. We have years of safety data. If there were long-term effects, we'd see them.

There is a self reported Covid death/issue website, posted 10,000 US deaths and 15,000 European deaths.

Self reporting is worthless. Tons of people will die *after* vaccination simply because tons of people die *every day*. The question is whether there's a causal mechanism. Simply put, there isn't.

To the pro-vaxers, please offer proof in the form of articles and case studies.

I just cited the most up-to-date (literally released today) data from a state of 9 million people. In case you missed it:

4,432,769 fully vaccinated individuals
3,474 COVID+ cases among the fully vaccinated (99.92% effective)
84 COVID-related hospitalizations among the fully vaccinated (99.998% effective)
31 COVID-related deaths among the fully vaccinated (99.9993% effective)

Also amazed how the news from Israel is very much different from the US news, issues with the vaccine and number of problems.

Israel had two COVID deaths yesterday. TWO! In a country of 9 million. And that's the average for the past few weeks. Here's what their caseload looks like. Goodness if only the whole world looked like that.

My understanding is that a vaccine goes thru 7 yrs of tests before it is released and a small number of deaths cancel its use. The vaccines have been studied for 10 months. What about long term affects?

Vaccine development often takes years because vaccines are usually used to address illnesses that have been with us for a long time, so most of the population has been infected and has some resistance. So you take your time and develop and REALLY optimal protocol. A pandemic is a completely different ballgame - EVERYONE is susceptible at first, so it's literally a race to save lives.

As for the silly "10 months" figure, see my comment above. After being corrected on this repeatedly, are you going to stop insisting that we've only been looking at this for 10 months? I mean on it's face that's a silly claim. The Moderna vaccine was essentially done *two days* after the SARS-CoV-2 genome sequence was made public in January of 2020. That was 18 months ago. So worst case, if the entire mRNA vaccine platform POOFED into existence the day Moderna finished the vaccine, we've been at this for 18 months. So really, are you going to stop propagating this obviously false talking point?

I am not here to scare people, I will take the word of 2 established doctors over our govt.

1. Name the doctors, please. Because I think I know who they are...

2. It's not "2 doctors vs. our government". It's "2 doctors vs. the medical and public health consensus of the entire world". For example, as of about 5 weeks ago. But sure, let's trust 2 random doctors instead. Yes.

[sniper97]

My article is above, looking for actual case studie vs generic articles. Moderna has only existed since 2010. The lady first studing mRNA lost her findings and was demoted, could not figure out how to get it into cells

[Diomedes]

Okay, so you're not going to answer either my questions. Not helping that you either didn't read the rest of that article, or worse, did read it and wrote that comment anyway. Thanks for clarifying where you're coming from and the degree of seriousness you're bringing to this conversation. I hope everyone reading this can see the differences here - repeatedly providing specific information and sources, vs. refusing to answer two simple questions.

[sniper97]

Articles

The article was posted above, prior to your post. Hanging out with the kids. Don't appreciate your attitude

[sniper97]

Another question!

Anecdotally, I've heard a lot of people speculate that they had Covid in February 2020, January, even December or November 2019. Initially I was sceptical, but as more evidence comes out it seems the virus might have been generally circulating earlier than initially detected. Thoughts? Was there a spike in RSV, pneumonia, etc., In late 2019ish that may have actually been Covid?

Posted above, Covid-19 found in antibody test in Red Cross blood from Fall 2019


Comment from the 1st article you posted a link to:

"weighted toward technology platforms that have never made it to licensure before.”

2nd quote:
Although relatively easy and quick to produce compared to traditional vaccine-making, no mRNA vaccine or drug has ever won approval.

More fun facts: out of 12 potential vaccines, only 2 are mRNA. This is Moderna's 1st and only "drug", Moderna was founded in 2010.

BioNTech, founded 2008, could not find any drugs they have produced. Basically 2 companies with zero drugs and a short history are running the show.

Like how you dismiss the self reporting data,, all those people have to be wrong.

[sniper97]

Covid-19 found in antibody test in Red Cross blood from Fall 2019

Your own articles state it is new and untested. 10 months, that is 10/2020, when trials started in humans.

Comment from the 1st article you posted a link to:

"weighted toward technology platforms that have never made it to licensure before.”

2nd quote:
Although relatively easy and quick to produce compared to traditional vaccine-making, no mRNA vaccine or drug has ever won approval.

More fun facts: out of 12 potential vaccines, only 2 are mRNA. This is Moderna's 1st and only "drug".and they were founded 2010.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(20)30673-2/fulltext

Please provide case studies on mRNA.

[Diomedes]

Yes, the vaccines *for the novel pandemic virus* are NEW new. mRNA vaccines are not. They have been tested *at least four times* in humans with no long term side effects, not including the COVID vaccines, with more trials either in progress or starting soon.

I'm seeing a lot of "but it's new" and "but Moderna", but not a lot of data. What about Israel? Oh, turns out Israel is doing great. Going to stop using that talking point, or just stop using it in this particular conversation?

Clinical trial data are public, but let me google that for you:

Flu: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31079849/

Rabies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28754494/

Again, there you go. Data. Studies. Facts. If you're going to continue to refuse to answer simple questions, I'm going to start ignoring you. Who are the two doctors you referenced earlier, the ones whose opinions should carry more weight than the collective public health infrastructure of the entire world?

[lhamilton1807]

I get your frustration, but I doubt he’s trying to piss you off directly. Changing attitudes and beliefs takes time. He’s open to discussion so let’s keep it there. I know you’ve repeated yourself and it’s frustrating. I get it.

But regarding the experts that testified, you can click on the link he shared and it’ll show you their names. Below is a list of witnesses from that page. Sniper97 mentioned that around 18 min into the testimony is where the treatments he was mentioning were spoken of.

Witnesses
Peter A. McCullough, M.D., M.P.H.
Vice Chief of Internal Medicine
Baylor University Medical Center

Harvey Risch, M.D., PH.D.
Professor of Epidemiology
Yale University

George C. Fareed, M.D.
Medical Director and Family Medicine Specialist
Pioneers Medical Center

Ashish K. Jha, M.D., M.P.H.
Dean of the School of Public Health
Brown University

[Diomedes]

I'm doubtful that mr. "We all known US media is controlled" is open to new information.

[sniper97]

Yes, the vaccines *for the novel pandemic virus* are NEW new. mRNA vaccines are not. They have been tested *at least four times* in humans with no long term side effects, not including the COVID vaccines, with more trials either in progress or starting soon.

I'm seeing a lot of "but it's new" and "but Moderna", but not a lot of data. What about Israel? Oh, turns out Israel is doing great. Going to stop using that talking point, or just stop using it in this particular conversation?

Clinical trial data are public, but let me google that for you:

Flu: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31079849/

Rabies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28754494/

Again, there you go. Data. Studies. Facts. If you're going to continue to refuse to answer simple questions, I'm going to start ignoring you. Who are the two doctors you referenced earlier, the ones whose opinions should carry more weight than the collective public health infrastructure of the entire world?

Comment on Israel is that they are reporting a higher re-infection rate of vaccinated people vs US and a much higher rate of heart inflammation.

We all known US media is controlled. Any opposimg opinions to Fauci are removed. I will read the studies.

I have posted the Medical Journal published early treatment article 2x's. Look above...or right below.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002...673-2/fulltext

[Diomedes]

The two doctors? Their names? I think I know who you're referencing, and also why you won't provide their names. But I'll let you decide which way you want to go with that one.

[Diomedes]

And while I'm here, questions for all the armchair epidemiologists in here:

1. What, specifically, is the timeframe where these serious side effects from the vaccines are supposedly going to appear? We're like 10, 11 months in for some stage 3 trial participants, and past a year for stage 1, so when do the side effects appear?

2. What would be the mechanism through which the vaccines would cause problems 9-12 months or more after being administered? Related, how long does the mRNA last in your cells? How about the resulting proteins? The answer to those latter two questions are "about 5 minutes" and "a few weeks", and given that, I'd love to hear an answer to the first.

3. What's the frequency of these supposed serious side effects? Given that there were hundreds of thousands of people in the various phase 3 trials, and hundreds of millions have now been vaccinated, what's the rate at which we're expecting recipients to experience these serious side effects?

Yes, I'm being a bit cheeky here, but it is pretty rich, that it's "give me a study for this, show me data for that", but flip the script and are there *any* answers beyond vague discomfort and conspiracy theories? (Edit: I wrote this before the post immediately above appeared. Conspiracy theories it is, I see.)

Answers I expect to get, if any: self-reported reports of complications, misinformation about toxic spike proteins, something about infertility, maybe even something particularly fanciful about "shedding" spike proteins. All biologically laughable ideas, no basis in reality, no remotely plausible mechanism.

Do I sound impatient with this farce? Yes. Am I impatient with this farce? Also yes. Facts [should] matter. Put up or shut up.

Anyway, this thread was originally an AMA about vaccines, covid, covid vaccines, vaccine trials, etc. Not a "throw misinformation and conspiracy theories at the wall" exercise. Perhaps we could get back to that.

[sniper97]

Peter A. McCullough, M.D., M.P.H.
Vice Chief of Internal Medicine
Baylor University Medical Center

Harvey Risch, M.D., PH.D.
Professor of Epidemiology
Yale University