Automag problem (first shot hot?)

[rawbutter]

Edit on 1/9/2023:
Here's the TLDR version. The problem of breaking too much paint turned out to be caused by two things. First, the two barrel halves weren't screwed together perfectly straight. Second, I wasn't chonographing my Automag the right way. As a result, I would sometimes get shots coming out at well over 300 fps when I was shooting bursts of high bps. I added some Teflon tape to the front barrel threads to fix the crooked barrel, and I lowered the chrono speeds by about 20 fps. That solved it.


Need some help figuring something out.

I've got a pneumag with an x-valve and Level 10 running from a 900 psi output tank. It chronos at 270-280. It's been my main gun for 10+ years now. It's been breaking a lot of paint the last two times I've played. It's not chopping, but it's breaking paint in the barrel. It was kinda bad last time I played (broke 2 balls all day), and then when I was out playing today, I literally broke a ball every game I played. Sometimes multiple times a game. Really frustrating.

I know it's not the paint. I was using the same paint that everyone else was shooting (Valken Grafitti), and they were using Tippmanns, Automags, and Emeks. I was the only one having problems. (Most of the other guys went the whole day without breaking a single ball.) The valve was rebuilt last summer, and it's not behaving unusually in any other way. No leaks. It's just breaking a lot of paint.

Like I said, I've had this valve for 10+ years and I've never changed anything except the o-rings. Is it possible something else is going bad? Any ideas are appreciated.

[Meleager7]

Last game I was at, the original wire detent in my new cp twist lock barrel got smashed and deformed inside the barrel by the auto mag bolt. It then split every paintball open on every shot. I’ll either be sourcing the plastic agd detents or try some bearded works printed detents at some point. Or I might finally spring for Doc’s mag adapter.

[Toestr]

Barrel breaks happen because the ball is somehow not completely structurally sound. It's either partially broken in the hopper or becomes so when it's loaded into the breach or fired.

Are you using a classic body and twist lock? If so detents are a big factor in preventing stack clipping and rollback/forwad (as is using the proper length bolt, but since you have a level 10 that isn't the case) The AGD plastic detents only work with modern paint if you put a strip of tape on the outside over the nub. Even then I'm not sure how that works with loaders that have a high stack pressure.

Meleager7 I'll bring a plastic detent and a roll of scotch tape to our next outing

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[Pyrate Jim]

Can you swap barrels?
It may not help, but it could eliminate barrel/detent problems, since each barrel has its own detent.
Have you asked over at AO? Haven't seen you there lately.

[rawbutter]

Yeah....I'm really not on AO much anymore. Also, last time I posted about a problem over there, I didn't get any helpful replies. I'd sooner ask one of the Facebook groups.

[Siress]

I've seen feednecks cause this when the body let's them thread into the bore just a little. The ball can get sliced on the top edge as it's loading into the barrel - particularly when the widest part of the ball is oriented to make the most contact with the protrusion. No reason to suspect this if you've not messed with the feedneck at all.

[nak81783]

Check your sear and the edge of the bolt that catches the sear. Both need to be sharp.

If you have a ULE body, check the detent. It may have unthreaded. Or it may have gotten gummed up.

[Olsson]

Is it even possible to get a hot shot on an Automag? Wouldn't rather a creep in pressure simply cause a vent in the valve?

Anyway, what hopper did you use? Specifically, did you use a force feed hopper? If so, it seems likely that could be the culprit, since the rest of the markers you listed would all work fine with a Revy or similar non force feed hopper.

To be more precise, with the small paint of today it's not uncommon for the second ball in the ball stack to get hit by the bolt when firing, thereby damaging it to the point that it breaks when it in turn is fired. I have seen this a lot over the last years, with "mystery" breaks all day for people who's marker setups generally never break.

[superman]

For the hot shot, check the reg seat oring on your reg pin. I want to say it’s the one on the bolt side of the brass piece for the reg pin.

[Secretweaponevan]

Check your detente. If the first ball is rolling too far forward, the next one will get cracked and then explode in the barrel when shot.

[Siress]

In theory, causes for a hot shot could be either:

1. A reg piston that doesn't move freely. This could be caused by debris in or around the reg piston or spring.
2. Per the attachment, a leak from either o-ring 1, or both 2 and 3 at the same time.

It looks like tank pressure increase wouldn't cause a hot shot.

My money is still on something in the hopper, bore, or barrel that's compromising the shell.

[nak81783]

If #2 or 3 are leaking, it would leak out the tiny side hole, right? Regardless, like you state, if they don't allow consistent/free movement of the reg pin assembly, it could cause a hot shot.

[Siress]

If there's a vent between 2 & 3, then yes. Why vent it, though? I'd probably seal that vent up good and tight to have the redundancy of 2 orings over 1.

[nak81783]

The vent is for safety. If the aft ring goes, it vents out the side to signal there’s an issue. The forward ring is still there to keep tank pressure (albeit venting) from entering the dump chamber. Without the vent hole, you’d never know there’s an issue, and if both rings failed, you’d have a path for tank pressure to the dump chamber after the reg seat has closed.

Can’t have just one ring there and still have the safety vent hole, because there’s tank pressure and on one side of the vent hole and dump chamber pressure on the other side. It needs two to make it work.

[rawbutter]

Thanks for all the replies. I should have mentioned that I have a ULE body and Dye Ultralite, so it's not a twistlock detent problem. I usually use gravity loaders (stick feed or 50 round hopper), so it's probably not anything related to stack pressure and balls being pushed past the detent.

I will look at my detent and feedneck and report back. I did change both in the last two years, so maybe I did something wrong there. I will also change those regulator o-rings and clean out the inside of my valve to make sure the regulator piston isn't sticking.

...with the small paint of today it's not uncommon for the second ball in the ball stack to get hit by the bolt when firing, thereby damaging it to the point that it breaks when it in turn is fired. I have seen this a lot over the last years, with "mystery" breaks all day for people who's marker setups generally never break.

Oh gosh. I really hope this isn't the problem. How would I even go about fixing a problem like this?

[nak81783]

Low force feed, slow bolt speed, and generous chamfer/radius on the bolt resolve the issue. A gravity loader takes care of the first one. A Level 10 takes care of the latter two and, in my experience, even with just the gold spring, is easier on paint than just about anything out there. For the last two seasons, my Automags have done better on paint in the cold weather than my Emek.

With your gravity loaders, is the Level 10 pinching at all, or are you not having any problems with feed rate keeping up with your fire rate? In my opinion, the best benefit of the Level 10 is the slow initial bolt speed. If you pinch on a slow feeding ball, it could break when shot. In my opinion, paint is more fragile today than when the Level 10 first came out, and you could pinch on the same ball multiple times without it breaking.

[Toestr]

My only other advice would be to make sure the foamie is still on the bolt. If it's not you could get rollback.

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[nak81783]

I've been experimenting with this over the last couple of months. One of my Level 10s has a foamie; my other one does not. So far, no difference, but I definitely thought the rollback would be an issue.

I had a rollback issue years ago with a Spyder SE, electric trigger frame, and a Halo. The force feed would push the chambered ball backward, the next ball in the stack would partially enter the chamber, and get clipped. A friend milled a second detent pocket behind the ball stack to keep the chambered ball centered. Problem solved.

[superman]

The rollback issue is more a problem with brittle paint and a forcefeed loader. It will have to force the paint back up in the stack to shoot.

[Olsson]

Oh gosh. I really hope this isn't the problem. How would I even go about fixing a problem like this?

Since you stated that you usually use gravity loaders, this shouldn't be the culprit. Well, as long as you weren't using a force feed loader this specific day. If so, the fix is easy - switch to a Revy or the like.

I have yet to break a ball with lvl-10 and a Revy with my main Automag, even when electros with eyes break paint with force feed loaders due to small and brittle paint.

[nak81783]

rawbutter,

Are you truly getting a first hot shot, or was that your guess at what was breaking the paint (air blast of the hot shot)? If you are getting a first shot hot, can you quantify it on a chrono? Thanks.

[rawbutter]

Okay. I got a chance yesterday to take everything apart and give it all a thorough inspection.

I've seen feednecks cause this when the body let's them thread into the bore just a little. The ball can get sliced on the top edge as it's loading into the barrel - particularly when the widest part of the ball is oriented to make the most contact with the protrusion. No reason to suspect this if you've not messed with the feedneck at all.

This is a good idea, but I double-checked the inside, and I don't see any part of the feedneck protruding into the body.

In theory, causes for a hot shot could be either:

1. A reg piston that doesn't move freely. This could be caused by debris in or around the reg piston or spring.
2. Per the attachment, a leak from either o-ring 1, or both 2 and 3 at the same time.

I took apart the valve and changed those o-rings, just to be safe. I didn't see any debris there...but the oil inside was rather black. The inside of the regulator cap was also rather black, as was the main bolt spring. Is that normal? I've long since sold all my other Automags, so I don't remember. But I don't think they were usually black inside.

Are you truly getting a first hot shot, or was that your guess at what was breaking the paint (air blast of the hot shot)? If you are getting a first shot hot, can you quantify it on a chrono?

I don't think so. I wrote that in the title of the thread, but then as I was writing my first post, I realized that I always shoot my marker once or twice right before the start of every game, and I never break paint then. If there was ever a time for a "first shot hot" situation, it would be then, when the marker has been sitting unused for the ten minutes or so between games. So no...I don't think I'm getting hot shots. I just forgot to edit the title, and I can't do it now.

I'll double-check with the chrono once I get the marker put back together, but I doubt this is the case.

My only other advice would be to make sure the foamie is still on the bolt. If it's not you could get rollback.

I checked this, and the foamie is still on there, but it looked flatter than I remember. So, I yanked it off and compared it to a fresh one. Lo and behold, it has been significantly compressed over the years. I went ahead and changed it, and we'll see if that helps any.

old v. new foamie

Check your detent. If the first ball is rolling too far forward, the next one will get cracked and then explode in the barrel when shot.

This is the movement I see in my Automag breach. The ball can maybe move 1/16 of an inch. That seems normal to me. I compared it to my Emeks, and they seem to have about the same amount of ball movement.

https://youtube.com/shorts/bymJRxTj57k?feature=share

That's all I've got for now. I have to wait 24 hours for the epoxy on my foamie to dry. Then I'll do some more testing in the backyard and see if that makes any difference. I'll check things over with a chronograph too.