Automag problem (first shot hot?)

[rawbutter]

One other thing I thought of when comparing my Automag breach to my Emeks.....

The front of the Emek bolt (and lots of other modern bolts out there) has a concave surface. This matches up with the curvature of the paintball, which makes it softer on the paint (because there's a larger area all making contact with the paintball at the exact same time), and it keeps the paintball centered as it's pushed forward.

The front of a foamie Automag bolt, on the other hand, is flat. Obviously the foamie helps it stay gentle, as does the initial stage of the Level 10 action, which is slower than the final stage. So I'm not worried about that breaking the ball. But the foamie is nevertheless flat. That means when the bolt is pushing the paintball forward, that ball is free to "roll" around in the breach instead of being kept centered...perhaps even rolling down far enough so that the next ball in the stack is clipped by the bolt.

I don't know. It's just a thought. But I might try to make my own concave bolt tip to do some testing. I can't make it out of foam, but I think I can make an aluminum tip that would press fit inside. Aluminum is apparently good enough for the tip of an Emek bolt, so it should do the trick as long as it's sufficiently concave.

[nak81783]

Any feedback on the detent? You never tipped the marker over enough in your video for me to see it. Is the o-ring on it? If not, it will thread in too far. Is it springing freely, or is its movement sluggish or restricted. I think I forgot an o-ring on one years ago. The bolt smashed the detent housing, deforming it, and restricted the detent's movement.

If you've got the resources, time, and ambition to try the concave bolt, go for it. However, there's something else going on if it's just starting to act up after all these years, and there are so many Level 10s out there working just fine.

As for the black oil, I'll say to some extent that's normal. I wipe everything down with soapy water every time I play, so it doesn't have time to accumulate. But even after a single day of play, they'll be some discolored/black oil.

[rawbutter]

Sorry I didn't get a good shot of the detent, but it's working fine. No sticking. It freely moves completely out of the way and bounces back well.

[Siress]

The front of a foamie Automag bolt, on the other hand, is flat. Obviously the foamie helps it stay gentle, as does the initial stage of the Level 10 action, which is slower than the final stage. So I'm not worried about that breaking the ball. But the foamie is nevertheless flat. That means when the bolt is pushing the paintball forward, that ball is free to "roll" around in the breach instead of being kept centered...perhaps even rolling down far enough so that the next ball in the stack is clipped by the bolt.

I don't know. It's just a thought. But I might try to make my own concave bolt tip to do some testing. I can't make it out of foam, but I think I can make an aluminum tip that would press fit inside. Aluminum is apparently good enough for the tip of an Emek bolt, so it should do the trick as long as it's sufficiently concave.

I'm worried about that aluminum piece becoming a high-speed projectile with pointy features. Perhaps I can assuage your fears with the following sketch, and assurances based on the 100's of thousands of markers out there with flat-faced bolts. The concave bolts are significantly harder on paint because the leading edge is so much sharper than a blunt tipped bolt. Even the latest and greatest in paintball gun tech (CS3) uses a bolt face more similar to the LVL10 than the concave feature you described. The only reason some guns like the CS3 have the open face bolt is to..well..have an open face... Removing the flow restriction helps permit the lower operating pressure.

[rawbutter]

The concave bolts are significantly harder on paint because the leading edge is so much sharper than a blunt tipped bolt. Even the latest and greatest in paintball gun tech (CS3) uses a bolt face more similar to the LVL10 than the concave feature you described.

That's a good point. I had not thought about that. I'll leave the bolt alone, then, and focus on the other stuff.

[nak81783]

Reposting this, since I buried it in a comment and didn’t see a response yet.

With your gravity loaders, is the Level 10 pinching at all, or are you not having any problems with feed rate keeping up with your fire rate? In my opinion, the best benefit of the Level 10 is the slow initial bolt speed. If you pinch on a slow feeding ball, it could break when shot. In my opinion, paint is more fragile today than when the Level 10 first came out, and you could pinch on the same ball multiple times without it breaking.

[rawbutter]

As far as I can tell, the Level 10 isn't engaging. I mean, it works. I tested it this morning. But I'm not hearing it engage when I'm having these issues. So I don't think it's a matter of the Level 10 bolt bouncing off a half-fed ball, weakening it in the process, and then blasting it apart with the next shot. I think there's something else going on.

[nak81783]

Ok. Thanks. I’m running out of ideas. Those remaining are getting more fringe. Sear and bolt lip sharp? LPR properly tuned?

[rawbutter]

The sear is relatively new. I changed it a few years ago. And the bolt seems okay...although I'm not sure I've ever seen a damaged one, so I might not know the difference. I'm not completely against buying a new bolt, but that's a $60 part. I'm ruling out everything else before I do that.

[rawbutter]

Well, I've had a frustrating morning. I changed a few o-rings, made sure everything was super clean and oiled, checked the detents and everything else, but when I went into my backyard to shoot through a pod and get some chrono readings, I broke another ball. This was with fresh paint (a month old?) and slow, consistent shooting. Nothing more than 2 or 3 balls per second. And again, it's not chopping. The ball just exploded as soon as it was shot. Just to be sure, I cleaned everything up and tried shooting another pod, and the same thing happened again. I can't get through 50 shots without a break.

As for the chronograph readings, they're not great. I'm getting anywhere from 250-280, often times with a 10 or 15 fps range between shots. But the fps is never going higher than 300, so I still don't think I'm getting hot shots. Just a lot of inconsistency.

Also, I realized today that the velocity adjuster on my valve is pretty much maxed out. I can screw in the back cap maybe another 1/4 turn, but that's it. It bottoms out after that. So....maybe I need a new regulator spring? Or is that normal?

[nak81783]

That’s not normal. Are both inner and outer regulator springs present?

[rawbutter]

Yes. I'm thinking about buying new ones, though.

[Jordan]

Bent reg pin? They can be tweaked without being noticeably messed up.

[rawbutter]

I'll take a look at this tomorrow.

[rawbutter]

Okay...nope. This is normal. I took out the pin and spun it in a cordless drill. Looks straight to me. Interesting idea, though. I've never heard about this before. Glad I checked at least.

[Walker]

I assume there are no leaks.....

Test the output of your tank regulator If you can't verify the pressure, use a different tank. A tank reg issue can cause all of these problems.

Use a different barrel, preferably not Freak capable.

Reset your gun......

- Back the velocity adjuster out to where you have about 1/4-inch (or threads) showing, and the gun doesn't cycle.
- Turn it back in until the gun cycles reliably, then add 1/2 turn more.
- Put a squeegee down the feed tube (do not use your finger), fire gun, make sure the bolt resets properly.
- Put a barrel on the gun, preferably different than the one you have been using, not Freak capable.
- If you have reballs, and a place you can use them, test the gun.
- If you can't test with reballs, use paintballs.
- Drop one in the breech by hand. Does it get propelled properly? It should, although velocity might be low.
- Test with a few more, turn up velocity a bit if needed. 250-260fps is a good place for testing.
- If you have to turn the adjuster in so far that there is less than 1/8 inch showing, stop. There is an issue that needs to be corrected.
- If all goes well, add a loader with 5 balls, or enough to fill the stack. Shoot them out at a slow pace.
- If there are no breaks, add another stack of balls and pick up the pace. Up the velocity to 280fps....

If issues occur, let us know........


Walker

Note: This is how I test every one I put together. Sorry if it seems overly simplified.... I'm a bit old.....

[rawbutter]

Thanks, Walker. I ran out of paintballs today, but I'll try this as soon as I get some more.

[Spider!]

Are you sure your paint is consistently smaller than your bore?

We've been seeing (some) 0.686 paint lately. Some guys had to scrounge for a barrel large enough.

Which lvl 10 spring are you using?

Rail bushing is in place?

[rawbutter]

Red spring, rail bushing in place...not sure about barrel bore size, though. It's a Dye UL Boomstick, which I always assumed was .688, but who knows if that's really the case. I bought it used probably ten years ago and wasn't worrying about bore sizes back then.

I'll make a jig to measure this and get back to you.

[rawbutter]

Definitely 0.688. I turned down a scrap piece of aluminum on the lathe just to be sure.

I suppose it's possible that I'm still getting the odd ball that's WAY bigger than the rest (Valken Graffiti is always on the small side), but I don't think so. I have a few other .688 Dye UL1 barrels that I use for loaner setups. A few friends were using those barrels with the same paintballs on Saturday when I was breaking a ball every game, and they didn't have any problems. Like...zero breaks. So I don't think it's the random 0.686 paintball. There's no way that they would have all ended up in only my hopper.

[rawbutter]

Thanks again for all the suggestions, everyone. Sorry none of you have been right so far. As this point I've tested everything I can test, so I need to wait until I get some parts in the mail before looking at this again. Just as well, though. I need a break.

[Meleager7]

I think you'll need to do the process of elimination thing. Try swapping out the valve from classic valve level 7 gun that is not breaking paint. Use the same paint. If you get same breaks its either the paint, or the barrel, or the body.

If the breaks go away, you've at least narrowed the issues to be something with the valve , and or the bolt .

[nak81783]

Try another paint (with the marker as is when you started breaking paint), preferably a tough low level field grade. I know you said others were shooting the paint without issue, but if you're breaking another type of field grade paint, the paint can truly be ruled out.

If you change parts before doing this, it may solve your issue, but not my curiosity. And the latter is what matters.

[rawbutter]

I've already tried to shoot the same paint through the two Minis that I've been fixing up. I was able to shoot a whole pod through both markers without breaking a single ball, and that's using the stock barrels. I know Minis and Emeks are softer on paint than Automags, but still. Valken Graffiti is pretty hard paint. It's designed to go in magfed markers.

But, I did order some different paint nonetheless. It should get here this weekend. We'll see if that makes a difference.

[Spider!]

Have you had the red spring in there for a while? That is a good reason for your velocity adjuster to be turned in most of the way. I've only used the reds a couple of times, but only had a little bolt bounce trouble with them.

Most of my chops were from double feeds and bad power feed plugs. I have had small paint roll past a single good ULE detent. If the paint is egg shaped, some of it fits the detent and then one will roll skinny-side past the detent.

[rawbutter]

The red spring has been in there for years. I did order a new one. And I have the longer silver spring I could use. I'll have to add that to the list of things to try.

I've also thought about adding a second detent. I have the tools to do that myself. Gotta buy a new tap, though. None of mine fit that thread size, so it has to be something unusual.

Edit: The detent thread size is 1/8-28 BSP. Definitely not something I have. Guess I'm ordering a new tap.

[Jordan]

rawbutter - I always thought ULE bodies took Angel detents... if that's the case, could it be metric?

[superman]

This may help. There are more threads on ao about the threads too.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?213869-Detent-thread-ID