The BEST Co2 Gun ever made!??

[Jordan]

I guess that boils it down to what the "best performing" gun on CO2 is...

Seems like anything with a good reg or expansion chamber should qualify. Stainless braided hose is a must for sure.

Again, I'm going to go back to a Spyder. They run pretty darn fast, are smooth, tolerate/love CO2, and are still pretty accurate on co2. As a bonus most of them came set up for CO2 right off the bat whether that be having an expansion chamber or a vertical tank setup.

God I miss vertical tanks. That use the be THE THING to have is a 20oz on a vertical ASA. It was cool to be able to just set the gun on the tank and have it balanced sitting upright on the bottom of the tank.

I never got the vertical tank thing, I need something against my shoulder so prefer bottomline.

Wasn't there some weird tournament rule about gun hits not counting so everything went vertical bottle for a bit to use the tank as a shield?

[ghilliesuit]

Gotta agree with you Jordan. There is a reason vertical tanks went away and never came back for mass production guns.

[Chuck E Ducky]

My ultimate CO2 marker is the CCI Phantom it’s really the only time I run CO2.

[Cunha]

Palmer Semi Autos
Montneel Semi Autos
Tippmann Semi Autos
Any nelson pump
Any sheridan pump not set up for LP

It's hard to beat a 50 dollar tippmann 98. They work really well. I like the build quality and features of a piranha blowback better, but I think the tippmann works better.

[gabe]

I don't think it was a tournament rule as much as just keeping CO2 out of the guns. Pretty much all Spyders and a bunch of 'mags (the minimag comes to mind) were produced with a vertical asa as their primary air source.

I agree a stock is definitely needed but you have to remember that during this time (early 2000's) nobody really shouldered a tank. The drop forwards were in style and the cool way was to kind of just hold this awkward tall gun setup in front of you with both hands and wildly fan the trigger. Veritcal tank spyders worked beautifully for this.

[SignOfZeta]

I’ve never had any real problems with any gun I’ve ever owned. I’ve only ever run CO2.

To me the ultimate CO2 era gun is the OG Sterling. It feels great to shoot, has not a single adjustment on it, accurate as hell with stock everything. Dynamite looks. What else is there?

If it’s semi auto then you’ll have issues with CO2 but just about any of the refined Nelson guns (which technically includes the Sterling, but everything from Trracer, Carter Comp, Spartan, Rebline, Phantom, Gargoyle, Grey Ghost, etc) is likely to be problem free for years and years of play. To me, reliability is key so I’m pretty much always somewhere in Nelson land. I have a 10xx serial Trracer, purchased new by me, with all original power tube, hammer, valve, etc. So many thousands of shots, all on CO2x not even one issue ever. Unbeatable. An *actual* Nelson is probably more of a POS, but the “comp” style clones from slighter higher quality engineering are basically perfect guns.

But if I had to be honest the real greatest paintball gun ever made is the PGP, and it runs on CO2...so...that’s actually the winner, even though I’d much rather take a Trracer into a game.

[spikeball]

Might be a bit biased, but one that hasn't been mentioned is the ACI F4. I used mine I had in high school in any weather with a 16 oz chromolly tank in the mountains and it always shot great.
I think the two things that really made it great on CO2 were the sub zero expansion chambers and the small hammers, in comparison with the Spyders of the same era.

[Meleager7]

those aci sub zero ex chambers were very good! I had the 1st gen (not so curvy) 4 stage sub zero on a 68-carbine , and it worked great to keep liquid out. it was good size too, made for a nice foregrip

[Hp_lovecraft]

Personally, I did most of my tournament playing in the early 90s, when it was all co2, and I can prettty easily say, if the gun has a regulator, that its going to have problems at some point with co2.

Mags were so terrible with co2, that most tournaments had to have special "tom kaye" rules, allowing mag owners to have clearing shots to avoid massive hot gun penalities. Early cockers were worthless stock, requiring you to adjust the lpr WHILE playing. It was a joke.

The main issues with co2 and regulators is that any liquid co2 will naturally equalize and boil off to 1000psi. So if any liquid gets into the reg, the reg seat will act like a backcheck valve, and the downstram pressure will spike to 1000psi (etc). Blowing hoses, hot penalities, etc. Palmer addressed this issue with the Rock, adding a pressure vent, so that when liquid gets into the reg, it will safely vent the pressure as it boils.

With the Rock, the cockers, (typhoon, etc), froze up less often. Certaintly, but still suffered from terrible FPS swings. The faster you fired, the lower colder the tank, the lower the pressure, the lower the FPS. Not to mention that as the day warms up, the tank warms up, the FPS goes up.. Then is can spike when the temp hits 85 degrees. This can be mitigated a bit by adding an inline reg, and lowering the operating pressure.

and "dirty co2" will eventually lead to reg creep. the dreaded tournament killer. When I reffed, and saw a mag owner walking off with a "spooged" gun. I'd make him clean it, and give me a reading. A high percentage of them were spooged to hide the fact that fps was spiking hard.

yes, yes, with co2 filters, and regs, and venting lprs, and expansion chambers, and lpcs, and sprial remotes, and anti-siphons.... with all that stuff, you can have a gun that runs reasonable well with co2 at a high level. But it will fail at some point. And we have not even mentioned trying to get co2 guns working well in the cold.

So that really leaves blowbacks, which I'm not going to lie, is my favorite design. I like simplicity, reliability, durability. There is just very little to fail on a well made blowback.
The blowback does not need any regulation, so many of the problems with co2 are eliminated. You still have the pressure volatility of co2, and that does effect many blowbacks.

Certaintly, many just don't run well in the winter, as the pressure in the tank is too low. and if they have any maintenance issues, or just a bit dirty, they just do not work well. and while liquid won't hurt the valve, it can cause spikes as the liquid sloshes around the gun.

So the easy solution for that is a siphon tank. Forced liquid into the gun, all the time. This has an amazing benefit. No spikes. No drops. No cold weather issues. Very consistent fps, and then great accuracy. You get all the benefits of an HPA system, without the weight or cost or maintenance. Fill your tanks just like a regular tank, screw on the gun like a regular tank.

My pick for the best co2 gun might be the Tippmann Pro-Carb. Designed for liquid co2, but you could still run gas. Bomb proof design. We had these as rentals in the 90s, and would clean by dunking them in a tank of water, then hanging to dry. Its funny to think that back in the 90s, we never had issues with fps spikes in summer, or cycling issues in winter. all because they ran on siphons. It is just a really great design. Tippmann eventually changed direction in 1999, no longer supporting siphon tanks. The feeling was that siphon tanks were becoming a liability in the case that someone mixing up co2 tanks, and puts one on a regulated gun.

Its a shame, but the lawyers always win in the end. For reference, the Tippmann 98 was the last siphon rated gun. The 98-Custom was not.

I'm sure I was expected to pick the Montneel MegaZ. It is my favorite gun. I have a whole wall full of them that I will never sell. They are much more efficient then the tippmann on liquid co2. Much lighter, and can fire much faster. They are also super easy to strip and clean. It was a simple, elegant design. In its time, I think it was the best gun of its era, but I might not recommened one today to play with. Parts are scarce, and running without the siphon is difficult. The receiver bodies are prone to stripping, and sears to wearing out. Tippmans, even older 90s-era, are everywhere. But those are my 2 picks anyway.

[Brokeass_baller]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "spooged"? I've never heard the term before. I've been playing since 1998, so HPA has been mainstream for my entire paintball career.

[Jordan]

I think he's talking about the player deliberately chopping paint in order to hide a hot gun.

[Hp_lovecraft]

[gabe]

I wondered how long it would take for HP to wander in here and extol the virtues of the Mega Z lol

But yes absolutely agreed on all points. Best guns I've run on CO2 are blowbacks. They just eat that stuff up. Oh and that purple Z is a stunner too. Viva la vertical tank!

[Cunha]

What is different between the 98 and the 98 custom that makes the original model 98 siphon functional and the custom not?

Besides holes and stuff for the RT kit and other accessories, I didn't know there were any differences in the guts.

[Hp_lovecraft]

What is different between the 98 and the 98 custom that makes the original model 98 siphon functional and the custom not?

Internally, they switched to a plastic powertube from metal, and they no longer offered siphon tanks as an option. The plastic powertube does not handle the thermal cycling very well, and will crack when used with a siphon tank. They also switched the oring/cupseal material. (from buna, to buna? I forget).

Plenty of people would upgrade to the metal version, and then it runs liquid just fine, but in 1999, you could not get the tanks from tippmann any longer, or get support in any way. By then, "electro pneumatic" guns are suddently everywhere. Guns that would be destroyed instantly with a siphon tank, and tippmann just did not want the liability.

That said, I made an infamous post on the tippmannsports forum asking "Can tippmanns still use siphon tanks" 15 years ago, and then the internet literally exploded. Or at least the forum did. The techs actually told me it would violate the warranty to even use a siphon. 99% of the members thought I was talking about anti-siphons. It was a big mess, and I ended up getting banned.

Good times.

[Cunha]

That tippmannsports forum story is a true bummer, sorry to hear that. Thanks for the info about the powertube. I just bought a model 98, I think the ones I had in the past were customs and this would be my first standard. I didn't know some had metal powertubes from the factory. I know it was a popular upgrade and remains a popular upgrade.

[SignOfZeta]

One has to wonder what innovations might have come to pass if HPA wasn’t so aggressively cost cut in the 2000s (to sell more field paint, ultimately) and thus benefiting from of all kinds of non-scientific group think once it became established. (Not all the stuff they tell you at paintball shops is real, sad to say...). All the period solutions are pressure or state change related ways of controlling CO2’s bad sides. Development on CO2 hasn’t moved/existed much in 25 years.

I’ve often thought that a sort of “CO2 coozie” could be made to go around a CCI bucket changer that could run a PWM heating circuit with temp feedback. With today’s electronics one could pretty easily make a thing that controls the skin temp of the 12g cart to 60F, something like that.

[Hp_lovecraft]

I’ve often thought that a sort of “CO2 coozie” could be made to go around a CCI bucket changer that could run a PWM heating circuit with temp feedback. With today’s electronics one could pretty easily make a thing that controls the skin temp of the 12g cart to 60F, something like that.

In industrial settings, co2 warmers do in fact exist. But in a paintball settings, I don't think the feedback loop would work well enough. Rapid firing would chill the tank, heater would turn on, but then you might get an overpressure situation. Seems like a liability. Smart Parts did experiment with a similar system. The SP Nerve was originally supposed to have an inline chrono that was linked to an electronically controlled regulator. But it didn't work and never reached market.

Likewise, I remember people fiddled with ideas like sleeves made from finned aluminium. Good idea, did not work well enough. Or maybe you could put the bottle in a larger bottle of water? Tanks are filled all the time sitting in water to control temps... but not really practical on a gun

[XEMON]

I remember ducktaping hand warmers packet to bucket changer in the winter ... Last all day and just warm enough to prevent frost. ..