What's true about CO2?

[Hp_lovecraft]

I have only used co2 since I started playing 35 years ago.
Everything I own runs on liquid co2, and it would be a downgrade for me to swap over to HPA, which would be heavier, less efficient, less consistent and more parts to fail. Running liquid CO2 is a very niche market.

BUT.
I get why the industry moved away. Having worked at many fields in the 90s, a constant major problem was co2 guns in the cold failing to cycle, and in the heat spiking. And really, pretty much every day it will warm up after things are chronoed in the morning.... and most of those rentals will be running hot by noon. and if we chrono low, all those renters will be pissed... and we have to trust the non-renters to self-chrono.

Sometimes I spent more time chasing renters getting them to rechrono then anything else. Injuries from hot guns was a constant worry. And like I said, cold weather was a seperate headache... with cycling issues leading to paint-popcicles.... then I spend all my team cleaning out rentals, getting them to function.

AND.
The second pain was more and more guns could not really run co2 because they utilized some sort of regulation, and regulation fails when liquid co2 enters the system. Yes, you can build regulators to handle it, like on the Vector, or the early rocks and sledgehammers, but the industry just did not want co2 ANYWHERE NEAR the non-blowback guns. It was instant damage.

So the industry pushed towards HPA. I get it.
I'll still run liquid co2, but its not for everyone. Its really not for anyway..... except a very tiny group of us.

[James_Blond]

I’m always intrigued when Hp_lovecraft rises from the dark depths of the sea of co2 and whispers of the joys of running old markers on liquid, the bane or mere mortal markers and their needs of gaseous co2 or HPA. Whispers of Montneels, illustrators, early tippmanns and a select few others, whispers so monstrous as to send lesser creatures scurrying in fear of the ancient wisdom still guarded by a select few…

So before you retire to the depths to sleep for further centuries, would my BE Poison that I’m working on run on liquid just fine? I do have a couple 7oz siphon tanks i got in the lot i could try to have hydroed.

[Drunkscriblerian]

OpusX "2 inch rule"? I am not familiar with this, and also have a couple of 7oz tanks kicking around from back in the day. Does that mean they're still usable despite being, well...old?

[James_Blond]

Problem with the 2x2 rule is if the people working at the field are knowledgeable enough to know about it they still won’t fill unless hydroed because of their field insurance. Field insurance and policy can trump anything they want it to. So unless I get my own fill station and bring them filled to the field I’m probably out of luck unless I pay $25 for hydro.

[Brokeass_baller]

Drunkscriblerian here, have a read:

https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/paintball-news-aa/ask-the-experts/178992-2x2-rule-sticky-pinned

[DocsMachine]

I've been trying to get into some liquid Co2 builds, (68 special, Mega-Z) If I'm slow on the trigger or just taking pot shots, the velocity is hella low (like 230 fps). Once I start ripping it climbs up to 290 fps. If I slow down or wait for over a few seconds it drops back down. I'm not sure if Its an issue with how I'm building my siphon tanks or just the local field being wildly incompetent at filling Co2[...]

-That is generally how siphon guns work, really. Once the gun is filled with liquid, the velocity rises. But once you stop shooting, the CO2 wants to expand again- literally the liquid "drains" back to the tank, while the gas bubbles back up (that is, into the valve.)

It can and does work very much like the gas in a bottle of soda- the bubbles float to the top, the liquid drains back to the bottom.

In this case, it's a little worse than that, because as it warms even slightly, the liquid expands into gas- it "boils" (literally) and that gas helps push the liquid back into the tank.

For a fast-paced speedball, airball or "concept field" game, it's usually not an issue, as you're shooting reasonably regularly. In the woods or other slower-paced games, that can be a problem, as the gun can warm up and you're back to shooting gas for a few shots 'til you get liquid back up the siphon.

So before you retire to the depths to sleep for further centuries, would my BE Poison that I’m working on run on liquid just fine? I do have a couple 7oz siphon tanks i got in the lot i could try to have hydroed.

-It was my (thankfully brief) experience with a Poison that liquid would work fine (it's just an inline blowback, after all) but I'd be worried about the durability. The Poison was, to put it mildly, a hunk of crap that was poorly designed from the get-go.

If you o it, video it.

Doc.

[Chappy]

Myrkul while I don’t disagree with Doc, I also don’t have nearly that much swing on my Zs unless it’s really warm( 85+)or the guns been sitting at least 15 minutes . Definitely not by letting off the trigger in a string. Are you playing in warm conditions? If not I’m wondering if your valves have a safety bypass that allows it to pull gas from the tank past the siphon? If your valve has a notch through the thread and the whole through the notch into the valve, then it could cause this problem, sucking enough liquid when your firing heavy but immediately rolling back down when you stop. Like I said Doc is correct but the idea that you are losing fps while slowing down but not stopping shooting does not make sense.

[Myrkul]

The valves don't have the safety bypass, I was extra sure about that. The heat makes sense though, I tried using them in 90+ degree heat over the summer.

[Hp_lovecraft]

-That is generally how siphon guns work, really. Once the gun is filled with liquid, the velocity rises. But once you stop shooting, the CO2 wants to expand again- literally the liquid "drains" back to the tank, while the gas bubbles back up (that is, into the valve.)

To add to what Chappy said, years ago, I installed a clear macroline on my Electric-Z.... just so I could see the liquid co2. And I discovered once the gun is cleared a few times, it holds the liquid for a very long time. It doesnt "drain".like you think it would . Maybe its like when you pull a straw out of cup of water with your thumb over the end. It holds the liquid as you pull it out... and does not drain back... because science.

Back 1990-1992, everyone thought siphon tanks were the way to go. Then mags, and later cockers came out. They were arguably better technology, but could not handle liquid co2. It was a frustrating time to be on a team. Some of us had tippmanns and montneels, and never broke down or had hot guns. But the mags and cockers were always breaking down on co2, and always had hot guns. The mag especially. Many tournaments had to have a special "mag rule" allowing it to have a clearing shot before chrono because too many teams were being penalized. and those pre-rock cockers. Oh boy. Nightmare fuel. Better regulation, and Nitrogen/HPA really fixed those issues, but with added complexity and maintenance.

But those are just memories for the old days. Paintball is totally different now. Many fields just ban co2 completely, for the understandable reasons mentioned above.

As for the poison, I still think it is once of the more attractive looking paintguns ever made.... but... I've never seen one that worked.
I was able to dig out this 20 year old video:

[Chuck E Ducky]

Wait there are fields that ban Co2? I have never seen that. I have seen them not carry it. But never ban it outright.

[DocsMachine]

It doesnt "drain".like you think it would . Maybe its like when you pull a straw out of cup of water with your thumb over the end. It holds the liquid as you pull it out... and does not drain back... because science.

-"Drain" was not necessarily the right word to use, but still very much applies.

If that straw were full of a liquid that literally boiled from the heat of your thumb, it doesn't matter if the liquid "drains" out or is forced out by the expansion of the gas at the top of the straw.

You're right in that it shouldn't happen as fast as Myrkul describes, but it does happen- and as noted, the warmer the weather, the faster it occurs.

(And yes, I've done the same thing with clear macroline. )

Doc.

[capitalpaintball]

If I am playing in the woods I run co2 on everything. I have shot co2 on the is B2 since 1999. Anti-syphon 20oz into a secondary reg set to 600psi. Gun runs at 350psi. The second vertical bottle was because I needed more air at the time, its no longer on there because I dont shoot that much paint anymore.

[Myrkul]

Early B2Ks are also just straight up monsters though. The later models I've worked on lost the magic some how, I've rebuilt at least half a dozen B2k4s and a few defiants, and they are just meh. The og B2K though... Unquestionably my favorite electro. They are wildly underrated guns across the board and just keep working for almost ever.

[Brokeass_baller]

This is the most beautifully overcomplicated thing I've ever seen in my life. 2 ASAs, just to run a bottom line reg, so you can use a vertical expansion chamber and plumb a second tank off the front of it? Wonderful.

[DocsMachine]

Just for giggles I made a 'Cocker run on liquid, once.

This was before I had easy access to a digital camera, and years before anyone thought about posting such nonsense online, so sorry, no pics.

But it was easy, really. I used a 'pre-99' body (small front block bolt) and simply used an undrilled bolt. (FB bolts in those days simply being 3/8" button-head bolts that had been drilled for air passages.) I used teflon tape and an O-ring on the bolt, and when assembled, the front block was isolated from the valve chamber.

I had a 12-oz siphon tank on the standard vertical ASA, and a 7-ounce on a bottomline. The bottomline was run with a braided line up to the port at the bottom of the front block, so the 7-ounce did nothing but run the pneumatics. (We tried using a "Minicocker" vertical ASA on the block, but there wasn't enough room to use both tanks. )

It worked great, and we played a couple of deep-winter games with it, although the varying pressure and occasional liquid in the pneumatics half still caused some problems.

You could, with a little thought, do something similar on a modern electro- at least, one with a poppet style valve. Isolate the solenoid system (if it can be) from the valve chamber, and run that on, say, one of those little 13 CI HPA tanks. Hook the valve chamber (maybe with a volume reducer) to a siphon tank, and go blow some people's minds.

Doc.

[Myrkul]

An Impulse would be the easiest. With an LPR the valve chamber is already sealed off from the solenoid and ram assembly. The trick would be finding an imp valve that could run that high of an input pressure.

[The Inflicted]

I recall once seeing a video Michael Spurlock once posted of an Odyssey O2 or some similar Spyder-bodied FASOR that had no LPR and used one of those clapper-solenoid 3-way valves that was supposedly left running full auto at 50cps for 48 hours and was still cycling. Really wish I had saved the video.

[Falcon16]

I remember running C02 when I first started back in the very early 00s with no expansion chamber on my R6 eforce the tank and the gun would condense over really quickly. suffice to say I moved on to using a 48./3K ASAP. That in mind I've run smaller C02 tanks for some brass markers and still run 12G on my super stocker. That in mind I think we can all agree that at this point C02 has been vastly outstripped by HPA except for very limited use cases such as siphon tanks or markers that need the pressure of C02 to operate and even those you can get an HPA reg that'll do C02 pressures without issue you just get less shots. I will say C02 was great for that I could shoot like 1000+ shots off a 20 oz tank way back when not many modern markers are doing half a case or more off a standard tank though my Gog Enmey is close and my pumps can do it but a standard semi auto? Nop

[DocsMachine]

[...]except for very limited use cases such as siphon tanks or markers that need the pressure of C02 to operate[...]

-It's not the pressure, it's the density. The issue is that some of the older markers, the SMGs, the 68 Special, the Montneels, etc. had what we'd consider very small valve chambers at the time. And in order to get up to competitive speeds, you need to pack that tiny valve chamber with as much energy as you can- that is, liquid CO2.

Doc.

[Meleager7]

c02 is pretty fun propellant to play with , it brings back the nostagia feels from the vapor clouds, and the co2 smell.

4 of my 5 co2 preferred guns can successfully running liquid right now (Montneel Z1, Tippmann 68special, Tippmann mini lite, icd alley cat deluxe )

I have to say, with consistent paint, and a few shots to pre-charge the valve with liquid, the consistency over the chrono is amazing !!! Very autococker like, if not better IMO !

My 5th co2 gun , a bob long millennium, is shooting too hot on liquid approx. 330fps , with my lightest spyder main spring out of the kit I have, and the rva backed all the way out.

I still need to cut the spring and test, but have been out of co2 for a while now , which is the other problem with Co2 these days , trying to find a fill !!!!

[Chuck E Ducky]

Back in the day I use to have a bunch of mini co2 tanks that I would fill at my local Proshop. I would ride my bike down get them filled on the way to our outlaw spot. I ran it on an old Phantom and my VM68. I guy would charge me per fill not by the amount or weight used, so it was always more expensive for me to run it that way but I liked how it was a lighter setup. Vs a big tank I could play all day on. I just shot less paint than everyone else who were on a Mommy and Daddy budget. I remember getting over shot a bunch because I use to kick there butts regularly with “old gear”. I guess that’s why I enjoy Stock Class play so much.

[Hp_lovecraft]

Just for giggles I made a 'Cocker run on liquid, once.

I know the original Vector A/B were designed with venting LPRs that could run liquid. Glenn Palmer would recommend liquid on his guns that used a rock (not microrock). It was also designed to vent liquid.

so its possible with a good, venting LPR, it should work. But it can't be very effecient to run that way, and it seems like a chance taken, since what if it doesnt vent fast enough? thats when things break

[The Inflicted]

What about the first generation of Bob Long Intimidators?
Weren't those designed with potential CO2 use in mind?
I seem to recall seeing one run with a vertical 20oz tank hanging out of the vertical ASA.