Vee Twin Autococker

[DocsMachine]

Is it a single air hole at the center going to both bolt at the same time?

-No, each side has it's own passage. The port at the top of the valve looks like a Figure 8.

Will the new cnc machine crank out vee twins one day?

-Considering the new CNC is a lathe, not a mill, probably not.

That said, even when I do finally get a CNC mill up and running, well, still no. There's just not enough demand, and they're relatively uncomplicated enough I can (obviously) do them on a manual machine. Doing them up with a CNC wouldn't really start being any kind of a price break 'til we started making thousands, and there's just not that kind of demand.

Doc.

[JeepDVLZ45]

doc,

I’m assuming when you pull the trigger, 1 paintball is fired completely simultaneously with the other…

Is it possible to have one side fire and the the other on a single trigger pull? Maybe one on the pull and the other on the release? Or one in the first half of the stroke and the other on the second half? Or maybe have it set up like a twin trigger shotgun?

Just a hypothetical, but I think it’d increase the overall level of complete and utter badassery of one of these (if that’s even possible) and might convince me to sell my entire hoard and make it a reality…

I realize that this would take a boat-load of engineering and I was a physicist in a past life….so I’m familiar with leading every answer with “Well, technically…”

[DocsMachine]

Is it possible to have one side fire and the the other on a single trigger pull? Maybe one on the pull and the other on the release? Or one in the first half of the stroke and the other on the second half? Or maybe have it set up like a twin trigger shotgun?

-There's only one valve, with a passage to both bolts. It's just like a Palmer's Nasty Typhoon or Nasty Hurricane.

Just a hypothetical, but I think it’d increase the overall level of complete and utter badassery of one of these (if that’s even possible) and might convince me to sell my entire hoard and make it a reality…

-It would. Which is why I did, in fact, many years ago, come up with a way to make them "alternate". It's actually kind of simple, but will be tricky to build- more tricky than a typical VT. I actually intended to use one of those bodies to try it out, and have a small box around here somewhere with some of the parts I'll be needing.

Interested? I'll build one for anyone that wants one, but it'll be almost literally a "blank check" build. A lump of cash up front to show you're serious, and a blank check I'll fill out and cash once it's done.

I realize that this would take a boat-load of engineering and I was a physicist in a past life….so I’m familiar with leading every answer with “Well, technically…”

-No 'technically' about it.

Lovecraft mentioned just a couple weeks ago, a guy by name of Al Mollick. Was an airsmith of some note waaaaay back when, like '96-'98. Literal lunatic, rumor had it he had suffered a brain injury, and had to take meds to keep an even keel. More often than not, failed to take them, wrote amazing screeds that to this day I wish I'd saved. Claimed that he was about to "take over the industry", that guys like Tom Kaye and Bud Orr were quaking in their boots because he (Mollick) was going to take all their business, sue them for patent infringement, etc. etc.

Had you actually asked either of them back then, they'd have asked "... Who?"

Anyway, he actually got people to send in markers for mods, very few of which turned out successfully. Didn't take long before people found out his "mods" were rough Dremel holes, epoxy putty, and literally broken-off pieces of prototyper's breadboard. I've got some pictures of an "electro Cocker" that he built for a customer- literally epoxy putty, dental floss, black tape and stripped screws.

Long story short, before people found out what a nutball he was, among other things, somebody sent him a Nasty Typhoon, because he said he could make it shoot alternate barrels. Never got any further than a single photo of a Nasty with a second ram literally glued to the passenger side of the gun- but not connected to anything. He said he figured out how to do it, "it was easy".

I was sure he was a nutball and his idea probably involved low level magic and an application of unicorn poop, but I was intrigued by the idea of a double that could alternate. I noodled the idea for a while, and before long, came up with a way I thought it could be done.

And ever since I built the first Vee-Twin in '04, I've wanted to try it.

Doc.

[JeepDVLZ45]

Interesting…we may have to chat more.

I could be up for a 1 off Unicorn piece of engineering wonder and bewilderment. I would want to know the mechanics of it first…it’s just who I am

I had some ideas in my head on how such a system would work….I doesn’t seem “crazy”, but I am 110% ignorant on machining and airsmithing (would like to remedy that), and would have no idea how to start such a project.

[automeister]

Doc, I want to order one. I sent you an email but have not heard back from you. How do I order one? How do I get ahold of you?

[DocsMachine]

Doc, I want to order one. I sent you an email but have not heard back from you. How do I order one? How do I get ahold of you?

-I got your message this afternoon. Today was pretty booked, I'll try to get you a more detailed reply Monday evening, but for the time being, to start with I'll need to know a little more.

Do you want just a body kit, or a complete marker. Extra milling, fancy anno? If you want a complete gun, do you have any parts (grip frame, pneus, etc.) or will I be sourcing them all? Did you want a mech or a pump, and full size or mini?

I'm a custom shop, each gun is custom made to order. You want a bare body kit on a budget? I can do that. You want a full-tilt, plug-and-play marker with the best parts somebody elses' money can buy? I can do that, too.

Doc.

[Headshotted]

Fastest polarbear in the west.

[automeister]

Thank you for getting back to me Doc! I would like a bare bones body kit for a mechanical marker. I would like a full body or mini, whichever is cheaper. No fancy milling or anno.

[OpusX]

Needs more video...

[Chuck E Ducky]

STOP your making me MOIST!

[BlindFaith429]

Jesus thats amazing.

Out of curiosity, could you E-Blade that thing, and crank up the ROF?

[DocsMachine]

Needs more video...

-That's the same one I posted 'in the white'. Hope he's still got the pump kit.

Out of curiosity, could you E-Blade that thing, and crank up the ROF?

-Of course. There's one out there anodized a sort of 'lava' red, as I recall, that the owner put an first-gen E-Blade on. (No eye.)

Thing is, as the above video notes, a 'Twin is trying to shoot two balls though what's basically a normal sized 'Cocker valve and valve chamber. That's actually kind of asking a lot, and so you need a lot of pressure and a lot of spring. And, the faster you get the ROF, the more any restriction in your air supply starts being a thing- remember, it "thinks" it's shooting twice the actual ROF. If you're only shooting 10/sec, the air needs to keep up with 20/sec. (In all reality, probably slightly more, as the twin-barrel arrangement isn't as efficient as a single-tube.)

One of the early ones I built, I tried making a copy of the Tornado, including using a real Tornado poppet, thinking the additional flow would let me keep the pressures manageable.

Unfortunately, the Tornado, while a great valve for a single, was a poor choice- they're more sensitive than most to pressure variations (you're supposed to tune a Tornado-equipped 'Cocker with pressure rather than the IVG) and if you get them out of the 'sweet spot' you have to really reef down on them to get back up to velocity.

The fact is, a more standard-profile 'Cocker valve and valve stem, and what we'd consider higher pressures today, are the ticket.

Also... keep in mind that a VT is not a particularly light, quick gun. The ram has to cycle twice the mass as a standard 'Cocker, plus the stress of the heavier mainspring.

Ken made at least one of his "Ma Deuces" in a halfblock configuration (wait, if it's a halfblock, but twice as big, wouldn't that be a full block again? ) but again, that's still twice the weight of a conventional halfblock.

A Vee-Twin is not a light, fast, speedball gun. They're meant mainly to be fun, different and intimidating.

Doc.

[BlindFaith429]

Very cool. I wasn't sure if the design would limit the ROF, with the added mass of the dual bolts and the added stress of running 2 air chambers from one valve.

As you said, even just cycling the gun at 10 BPS is essentially like shooting 20 since it is the dual set-up.

As far as the why, I wasn't thinking about a speed-ball set up. Just more of a "go big or go home" mentality, plus the intimidation factor of this thing ripping off 2 strings of balls at once lol

[automeister]

Doc, can you put me down for one of these? I would like to place an order. I am ready to make a deposit

[SETHZILLA!]

PMing you Doc about one for me as well.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

[DocsMachine]

Everybody should be replied to!

I've given first dibs- since he started this thread - for the partially-complete Mini body to Automeister. I have a local fellow interested in a full-size kit, Seth gets dibs on another, and unless somebody else wants it, I'll build the fourth for myself.

And I can always make more.

Doc.

[Meleager7]

Wow, there ain’t no party, like a vee twin party!!

[automeister]

Thank you so much Doc, I am seriously excited about this!