Has paintball lost it's target audience?

[uv_halo]

A bit of misinformation in both of these.

Lots of interesting perspectives in here, thanks guys. Didn't realize I opened such a can of worms

From what I understood they basically had to ban FSR for a while. It came out that FSR never actually got tested/approved by the astm before being sold. In turn once the insurance companies learned this they said, no FSR! And then it took idk, 6 or 9 months to get it tested/approved. I heard rumors they had to decrease the amount of fill to make them slightly lighter so they had less impact force to meet the testing requirements. No idea if that's true or not, just a rumor.

But even still, at the field level FSR had to take almost a year break because of that.

Tiberius initially claimed they were ASTM approved but there are multiple levels/layers to ASTM, which was convenient for *some* insurers like Cossio to knee jerk ban them. There were insurers and plenty of fields and big games that offered FS though. It wasn't until 2017 when FS was officially, officially ASTM approved. https://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=5783586

Up until FSR, the ASTM specification for paintball was very straightforward. It specificized size and weight, and IIRC, the shape was 'generally spherical' (probably to account for the industry simply being unable to make a truly spherical projectile). The fill was specced to be non-toxic and, a number of rounds (at least a majority, if not all) fired at a plywood board (from 20' IIRC) at a given FPS (280 or 300FPS IIRC), had to break on impact. That was it.

The ASTM doesn't test products, Full Stop. The ASTM develops and publishes standards. Everyone in the Industry (manufacturers, field operators, insurance underwriters, etc) rely on these standards (for netting, masks, park layouts, FPS, gun firing modes, etc) for things to work, it reduces the liability that manufacturers and field operators expose themselves to, and keep us all more or less safe from serious injury from shooting projectiles at each other from high pressure airguns.

New product types (i.e. projectiles) are not required to get certified before release to market. There are plenty of examples of this in paintball projectile history. Perfect Circle Paintball, The Safety Paintball, hydrotec paintballs, SniperBalls (those goofy fins, and rounds with them pre-attached), the second coming of .50, etc. Think about it- how do you certify something like nerf guns before kids have their hands on them? There is no legal or regulatory framework for the manufacturers of these projectiles to certify that their rounds abide by the ASTM. However, it is a DAMN GOOD IDEA TO because if your projectile is accused of causing an injury, you got nothing to fall back on.

So, here's what happened with Tiberius Arms. They (and Gibson Research Corp IIRC, the company behind the Perfect Circle Paintball) conceived of these rounds, and Tiberius Arms claims to have tested them against the ASTM specification for paintball (they were already members of the ASTM by this point), so they had full access to the specification. Now think about the standard at this point, it was so easy. I can't confirm that they did the test or, even had a third party test them before bringing them to market, but, I don't think anyone doubted that they would break on a plywood board at 20ft. So, from a performance perspective, they perfectly passed the standard. The only problem was the word 'spherical' in the description. They petitioned the sub-committee for at least a year before the rounds came to market and, all the way until they were heard. Why do you think that is? The existing industry didn't want them in the market. Maybe another company was working on a competing projectile but, they weren't close enough to market to compete. Maybe the gelatin paintball manufacturers didn't want to lose business. These companies couldn't just straight out say why they didn't want the rounds, so, they started putting out disinformation, through sponsored players, social media posts or, folks who are not directly related (i.e. Cossio Insurance, which I'll come back to).

Through public involvement (including myself) a new standard was adopted. The new standard addressed various projectile sizes and corresponding weights (i.e. no .50 PBs that weigh 3g) and removed the word spherical.

Cossio Insurance immediately retaliated by telling all of their customers that they would not cover FSR as part of their insurance plan (even though they were now fully covered by the standard). If fields wanted, they could ask Cossio to add that coverage, for an additional fee. By this point Cossio was a pretty big player, and this is why some fields literally changed their FSR policy over night.

In my own opinion based on the very long view- the industry lots its target when they focused on kids, and tried to make it a competitive sport (i.e. as an alternative to hockey). Sure, by focusing on kids, you can tap into the parents money but, then you we yourself fully to the whims of children who, going to do whatever they want to do, or whatever the social media engines tell them to do play roblox, gorilla tag, ding dong ditch, eat tide pods, etc, The public has just not really dug into the idea that this is a competitive sport. Maybe it's not as watchable. Maybe it's not as intricate in it's gameplay (compare how a paintball match is regulated vs an NFL game, and then look at how many different types of plays can be performed by a football team in a quarter), maybe it's just the whole shooting thing (or long range tag as some describe it). The bottom line, is that the industry, after more than 20yrs of trying, have failed to get the public to think of paintball as a sport.

So, what of the pivot towards tactical, or just woodsball (as specops pb envisioned it). Too little too late. Everything (field layouts, time limits, win conditions) are still speedball centric. Too many folks have too little disposable income, and those that do, don't have enough time. Both of which are at least somewhat required by paintball.

[RPP]

That is quite the overview and sounds pretty much like what happened when I think back and remember all the hubbub.

[cockerpunk]

eh, i find that even the most woodsball of woodsball players tend to stand behind trees like they are cans, and spray paint with the best of the speedball back players.

i had huge success in the woods, as a tournament/speedball player, wearing bright red, crawling on my belly, and no one else would ever do it. not even the most hardcore woodsballers.

the reality is that "the market" for paintball players is people who stand and shoot a shit load of paint behind a standing bunker of some type, for zero kills.

the notion that the shape of that can, or it being natural or not, doesnt really effect that.

i think they just like shooting.

airsoft also backs this up. people love those things cause you have a BB hose.

[vijil]

No and yes.

Our demographic got taken from us by products that compete well with PB.

Paintball has pain, mess, inconvenience, expense, unwatchability, and a few other issues like some danger with eyeballs.

Nerf, gaming and VR (roblox/fortnite), airsoft, now gelballs too, rapidly growing minor sports like pickleball and disc golf, even netflix and just doomscrolling tiktok on your phone are all competition for PB that address some or all of these.

All of this competition weren't major factors in the 80s to noughties.

Most of our market position is innate to what paintball is. We're not about to suddenly have some huge stadium filling revival by making tweaks to the way we do things.

[RPP]

Nerf, gaming and VR (roblox/fortnite), airsoft, now gelballs too, rapidly growing minor sports like pickleball and disc golf, even netflix and just doomscrolling tiktok on your phone are all competition for PB that address some or all of these.

All of this competition weren't major factors in the 80s to noughties.

Reminds me of this article I saw yesterday saying that TikTok is Xbox's biggest competotor. Aparently playing video games is even too hard now...

[uv_halo]

It's all about eyeballs on screen, and the ad revenue that can be gained. I think it's a bit alarming that Microsoft is thinking about Xbox in that light.

[uv_halo]

eh, i find that even the most woodsball of woodsball players tend to stand behind trees like they are cans, and spray paint with the best of the speedball back players.

i had huge success in the woods, as a tournament/speedball player, wearing bright red, crawling on my belly, and no one else would ever do it. not even the most hardcore woodsballers.

the reality is that "the market" for paintball players is people who stand and shoot a shit load of paint behind a standing bunker of some type, for zero kills.

the notion that the shape of that can, or it being natural or not, doesnt really effect that.

i think they just like shooting.

airsoft also backs this up. people love those things cause you have a BB hose.

When I complain about speedball and its impact on the game of paintball, I'm not talking about the shape of the cover. I'm talking about what defines speedball:

• a small playing field
• a short time limit
• maximal amounts of cover (people still need to be able to move up the field)
• minimal amounts of concealment (no time wasted trying to figure out where the opposition is)

The problem with this setup is that it limits the number of possible win outcomes, and thereby the number of viable strategies. Once all this is figured out, your left with snapshooting and laning.

A secondary outcome of this format is that it only caters to two types of players:

• those that want immediate action (for some it’s the adrenalin fix, for others, they don’t want to waste time with J-hooks, flanking, ambushing, etc)
• those who want to shoot a lot of paint (which this format was explicitly created for, and yes this includes pump or stock class play- you shoot more on these types of fields than you would if you were in an older format game.

There’s a lot of overlap between these two groups. But, there are a hell of a lot of folks who want something different, remember all the forum discussions with lots of new players: “I want a sniper rifle” “I want a paintball shotgun”, “I want a paintball flamethrower”, and all the poor attempts at making a viable paintball grenade… I’m not saying any or all of those ideas are great but, they show an interest that this industry (and its sponsored player base, plus those that wanted more speedball) actively shunned. “Why do have all that useless crap bolted to your Tippmann?”, ”Get a Tippy, Get Gud, Get [insert electro of the time], get on a (speedball) team”.

I’m not saying that “woodsball” is any better at the moment. Remember that whole “Speedball in the woods” that Tom Kaye mentioned? I’m talking about older game formats (not necessarily competitive), and I think about where the industry could’ve gone if I hadn’t gone down the path of speedball. There was a push in this direction but, old habits (and industries) die hard.

[uv_halo]

No and yes.

Our demographic got taken from us by products that compete well with PB.

Paintball has pain, mess, inconvenience, expense, unwatchability, and a few other issues like some danger with eyeballs.

Nerf, gaming and VR (roblox/fortnite), airsoft, now gelballs too, rapidly growing minor sports like pickleball and disc golf, even netflix and just doomscrolling tiktok on your phone are all competition for PB that address some or all of these.

All of this competition weren't major factors in the 80s to noughties.

Most of our market position is innate to what paintball is. We're not about to suddenly have some huge stadium filling revival by making tweaks to the way we do things.

I think a lot of your points really make sense in regards to the youth, and paintball as a sport. But, you are right that there is a lot competition. But, I also know that a lot of things like FPS games serve as a source of inspiration. The whole "I'm good at this "FPS Game" and I see how people (incl. myself) move and shoot, I want to see how I do in real life" paintball never, ever as an industry marketed along those lines. I remember a few parks created themed fields inspired by a specific game map but, that's about it.

I do agree though that nothing would fix it overnight, especially now. That being said, if the industry could re-invent itself I think it has a better chance of surviving in the long term.

[cockerpunk]

When I complain about speedball and its impact on the game of paintball, I'm not talking about the shape of the cover. I'm talking about what defines speedball:

• a small playing field
• a short time limit
• maximal amounts of cover (people still need to be able to move up the field)
• minimal amounts of concealment (no time wasted trying to figure out where the opposition is)

The problem with this setup is that it limits the number of possible win outcomes, and thereby the number of viable strategies. Once all this is figured out, your left with snapshooting and laning.

A secondary outcome of this format is that it only caters to two types of players:

• those that want immediate action (for some it’s the adrenalin fix, for others, they don’t want to waste time with J-hooks, flanking, ambushing, etc)
• those who want to shoot a lot of paint (which this format was explicitly created for, and yes this includes pump or stock class play- you shoot more on these types of fields than you would if you were in an older format game.

There’s a lot of overlap between these two groups. But, there are a hell of a lot of folks who want something different, remember all the forum discussions with lots of new players: “I want a sniper rifle” “I want a paintball shotgun”, “I want a paintball flamethrower”, and all the poor attempts at making a viable paintball grenade… I’m not saying any or all of those ideas are great but, they show an interest that this industry (and its sponsored player base, plus those that wanted more speedball) actively shunned. “Why do have all that useless crap bolted to your Tippmann?”, ”Get a Tippy, Get Gud, Get [insert electro of the time], get on a (speedball) team”.

I’m not saying that “woodsball” is any better at the moment. Remember that whole “Speedball in the woods” that Tom Kaye mentioned? I’m talking about older game formats (not necessarily competitive), and I think about where the industry could’ve gone if I hadn’t gone down the path of speedball. There was a push in this direction but, old habits (and industries) die hard.

• a small playing field
• a short time limit
• maximal amounts of cover (people still need to be able to move up the field)
• minimal amounts of concealment (no time wasted trying to figure out where the opposition is)

but this is just paintball. like we shoot light, large, inaccurate, projectiles at each other, so you can't play on big fields, with long time limits, with lots of cover, and have a bunch of shit in the way.

its always been speedball in the woods (watch any video from the 90s), cause thats what paintball is.



i think you want to play a different game than paintball, and thats fine, but like until you find a group who all wants to shoot FSRs and only FSRs at each other, this is the game. as long as the primary ammo has an effective/accurate range of 100-150 feet, pops on any kind of twig, and we carry around about a thousand of them, this is is what the game is.

[uv_halo]

its always been speedball in the woods (watch any video from the 90s), cause thats what paintball is.

i think you want to play a different game than paintball, and thats fine, but like until you find a group who all wants to shoot FSRs and only FSRs at each other, this is the game. as long as the primary ammo has an effective/accurate range of 100-150 feet, pops on any kind of twig, and we carry around about a thousand of them, this is is what the game is.

I distinctly remember the games I played before speedball took over. I remember being introduced to "Speedball" as a new style of game, at the end of the day (in July of 1992, in Southern California).

You can play on as big as a field as you want, just because you can't shoot someone because you're out of range, doesn't mean you can't play. For example, think about how to move your team across the field to arrive at an advantages position, ideally while the opponent is at a disadvantage, while they are trying to do the same thing to you. How about 'missions' escort a hostage across 'hostile' terrain? this stuff doesn't have to be limited to Scenario / Big Games. they just need more than speedball.

Ideally, I would want the game to be multi-caliber. .68 roundball, .50 (and/or .43) roundball, FSR and ammo limits for them, hell nerf rockets, grenades, smoke.

[cockerpunk]

I distinctly remember the games I played before speedball took over. I remember being introduced to "Speedball" as a new style of game, at the end of the day (in July of 1992, in Southern California).

You can play on as big as a field as you want, just because you can't shoot someone because you're out of range, doesn't mean you can't play. For example, think about how to move your team across the field to arrive at an advantages position, ideally while the opponent is at a disadvantage, while they are trying to do the same thing to you. How about 'missions' escort a hostage across 'hostile' terrain? this stuff doesn't have to be limited to Scenario / Big Games. they just need more than speedball.

Ideally, I would want the game to be multi-caliber. .68 roundball, .50 (and/or .43) roundball, FSR and ammo limits for them, hell nerf rockets, grenades, smoke.

:shrug: its like a military exercise, you know something is going to happen cause they dont pay you to patrol an empty field. like the fun part is the action, i dont think most people want to go on a 3 mile hike, in a mask, just to be shot out in an ambush in 10 seconds. war simulations are pretty not fun, cause war is pretty not fun, and typically won long before the battle starts, by decisions made by people not at the front line, and the folks at the tip of spear lose really fast when they lose. like nothing about that is very fun. like the goal of war is to win, not give the other team a fair shot.

the best way to accomplish scenario missions like that is to own the field and do the escort mission behind your lines.





like the game theory doesn't really support the kind of game you want to play, which is why it isnt played very much.

[vijil]

"I'm good at this "FPS Game" and I see how people (incl. myself) move and shoot, I want to see how I do in real life" paintball never, ever as an industry marketed along those lines

Paintball generically has been incompetent at marketing for decades now.

I think PB companies literally just can't afford decent marketing advice, and even if they could, they wouldn't value it enough to pay for it.

I'm marketing and comms manager ("VP Marketing" in American world). Nobody in PB could afford me, and it's not a high rate for what I do. The one company that probably could don't care.

[RPP]

Thats a very cool perspective. What is the first 1-2 things you would do if you were "in charge" for the day? Not for a specific company but if "paintball" hired you.

[vijil]

It depends if I'm going with my gut, or doing it properly.

Doing it properly, I start with a whole bunch of market research, surveys, interviews, competitor analysis, SWOTs, funnel analysis/customer journey mapping, blah blah blah.

Doing it based on my gut, I immediately start doing co-sponsorship deals with esports orgs, make the webcast free and move to a twitch style "ups" business model with various tiers of premium content and stream interaction, redesign the pro format for something more objective based - and spend whatever needs to be spent to get barrel/mask cams on all the pros with live streams. Go to limited paint as the default for all tournaments.

In the rental woods, push 50 cal, hard. Much harder than it's been pushed to date. 50 cal - only games should be most people's start. Competition will remain 68.

And, this'll be controversial: increase the price of paint by about 30-50%. Use that to A: help the move to limited paint and B: subsidise the upfront cost of gear and C: increase the quality of paint. Establish loss leaders on basic entry level equipment like masks and basic guns.

Establish a (voluntary) national or even global multi field monthly paid tiered membership program for players, which includes a certain amount of paint from partner companies, a profile, bundled access to gold ups on streams, access to member merch, and entry to a number of big events. Fields will need to be approved as meeting a certain set of minimum standards to join, including things like a basic set of universal conduct and safety rules, the provision of a certain quality of paint, etc. - the goal would be to have 70% or more of fields signed up, and the vast majority of regular players, who will expect their fields to get on board. Fields in turn would benefit from national level marketing. I don't think fields would need to pay anything - revenue would come direct from players.

I could go on. There's a lot of low hanging fruit.

Of course some of this is less CMO stuff and more CEO decisions.

[uv_halo]

:shrug: its like a military exercise, you know something is going to happen cause they dont pay you to patrol an empty field. like the fun part is the action, i dont think most people want to go on a 3 mile hike, in a mask, just to be shot out in an ambush in 10 seconds. war simulations are pretty not fun, cause war is pretty not fun, and typically won long before the battle starts, by decisions made by people not at the front line, and the folks at the tip of spear lose really fast when they lose. like nothing about that is very fun. like the goal of war is to win, not give the other team a fair shot.

the best way to accomplish scenario missions like that is to own the field and do the escort mission behind your lines.

like the game theory doesn't really support the kind of game you want to play, which is why it isnt played very much.

"like the fun part is the action.." That's a very narrow interpretation isn't it? Think about the first hand accounts of the first game. How much of the time are they talking about the actual physical part of shooting?

You also take the idea to the extreme- just because I think a field should be bigger than the typical speedball-derived field we experience now, doesn't mean that I want a three mile (or even a 1 mile) hike. And there's a hell of a lot of fun with win conditions beyond capture the flag and elimination. I gave you 'missions' as an example and you immediately tilted to how war is not fun...

I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on game theory but, I'm pretty sure that any such individual would have more serious problems with the current speedball format.

[Tinybear]

I have play some really interesting and dynamic paint ball games over the last 28 years. Big and small fields. Lots of scenarios, big games, speedball, stock class you name it. And I have enjoyed all of these forms at some point or another. All had their charms. I don’t think any one form is the right answer.

Some of my favourite games have been playing hopper ball early on (was years before I even owned a pod pack) indoors on more CQB style fields. Or heading out and playing 2v2 stock class speed ball on a hyperball field. Some of the big games I have played had some pretty interesting aspects. Like for instance gathering water bottles to fill your teams tube in the staging area (team to fill their tube first won). The waterbottles were hidden in areas of the field and often required keys or tools to access. Missions were handed out with clues one where said bottles were. Or even more simply just playing a gravity feed only or 12G only day. It’s all fun. Hell I wouldn’t even be opposed to playing a rental gun only day. Just get out and play enjoy trying new things regal the success and laugh at the fails. Promote great sportsmanship and introduce more people to play. The sport doesn’t need to be reinvented. It just needs to be played.

[Chuck E Ducky]

At Ganza we did an all Splatmaster game it was so much fun. COB must have supplied 20+ of them it was incredible.

[Magmoormaster]

No and yes.

Our demographic got taken from us by products that compete well with PB.

Paintball has pain, mess, inconvenience, expense, unwatchability, and a few other issues like some danger with eyeballs.

Nerf, gaming and VR (roblox/fortnite), airsoft, now gelballs too, rapidly growing minor sports like pickleball and disc golf, even netflix and just doomscrolling tiktok on your phone are all competition for PB that address some or all of these.

All of this competition weren't major factors in the 80s to noughties.

Most of our market position is innate to what paintball is. We're not about to suddenly have some huge stadium filling revival by making tweaks to the way we do things.

I agree with this... and frankly, paintball is about the worst option available. It's the most expensive, the messiest, the most painful, and the least realistic. As much as I prefer paintball, partially because of those things, why would anyone choose it over airsoft, nerf, or gelblasters? I've spent a looot of time in the last year or so thinking about what I would do if I had the money to reinvent the game and... I always hit the wall of, "why? How is this better?" Sure, shooting at someone, and being shot at, with a paintball gun is more fun than the alternatives. But is it worth the downsides? It sucks, but that's the reality.

[RPP]

That's why the call it "the bug" or whatever you want to call it. It makes no/less sense... but we do it because we love it.

[cockerpunk]

"like the fun part is the action.." That's a very narrow interpretation isn't it? Think about the first hand accounts of the first game. How much of the time are they talking about the actual physical part of shooting?

You also take the idea to the extreme- just because I think a field should be bigger than the typical speedball-derived field we experience now, doesn't mean that I want a three mile (or even a 1 mile) hike. And there's a hell of a lot of fun with win conditions beyond capture the flag and elimination. I gave you 'missions' as an example and you immediately tilted to how war is not fun...

I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on game theory but, I'm pretty sure that any such individual would have more serious problems with the current speedball format.

if you wanna crawl around the woods with a paintball gun, with nothing happening around you, there are plenty of woods out there you can do that in. so like, the action, is the point. it might be delayed action, it might be a lot of doing things before or after the action, but without the action, even you are pretty bored. bored enough to not do the activity.

more complicated the win conditions, the harder it is to balance the outcome and give both teams a reasonable chance at winning. one tree on one hill can be worth 5 people on the other team and you dont know that until you play that field in that way, repeatedly with equal skilled teams :shrug:

so like the whole problem becomes very complicated very quickly, and to the detriment of everyone's time and enjoyment. so we dont do it.

[vijil]

I think you're both right and wrong, cocker.

The action is "the point", but action means nothing without anticipation and buildup. Novels and movies always spend most of their time setting the scene and building the stakes before they jump to the climax. People really enjoy the sneak and reward mechanic, not just in PB. Sniper missions are fun because of the suspense they build. We watch sports because we care about the story of the teams, not just to see the action. Unless maybe the viewer is on the spectrum or smth idk.

There are milsim PB larp groups around here who will roleplay larp their characters and storylines. People are quite literally kidnapped blindfolded from their houses and locked up as part of hostage scenarios. The "action" in these games is minimal - one shot and you're out of the whole scenario and can go home. But that means the stakes are incredibly high, which massively adds to the suspense. It's very difficult to organise, but people love that stuff. At one point the milsim larp club was the biggest PB club in NZ's capital, by far. Producers and writers from our local film industry (Weta) were involved. It was insane. I think it's dead now, but that's all PB.

I'm not suggesting that as a model. I am suggesting that stakes matter, suspense matters, narrative matters. Speedball tournaments absolutely have narrative. One of the problems with speedball broadcasts is that we suck at telling the story. Heck I don't think I've ever even seen a real game "highlights" reel in PB. Just boring music vids. The split deck format, the masks, all that doesn't help either.

Heck, cocker, YOU were a big part of what narrative PB had, in the sense that you were a journalist and part of the community. All the content surrounding PB was part of that. I was a big fan of your work back in the techpb days.