Has paintball lost it's target audience?

[cockerpunk]

The biggest limitation of speedball which really makes it so different is the size to player ratio. In the formal speedball (symmetrical fields, airball, hyperball, etc) It possible for one team to completely lock the other team down, that is actually the intended strategy for a stupidly high percentage of the game. Likewise, I've played lots of asymmetrical speedball in the woods fields that often without the designer of the field necessarily intending, there is one control point that can seriously make it likely that the controller of that point can win the game. In fields that are large enough, neither of these scenarios are possible, assuming that you're not simply playing elimination.

I also think there there are enough obvious differences between a scenario game and a speedball match that, I don't need to explain them to you. Sure the individual player movements pertaining to shooting are all the same but, the important thing- That's not all there is. There are scoring objectives some simple, some complex. There are vehicles and anti tank vehicles, there are grenades (where there were better offerings than what we got today). There's smoke. There's backspinning barrels, and even First Strikes. All of these differences can mean that individuals can have a completely different experience (with some folks not even being required to fire an actual paintball). It's all paintball in the grands scheme of things but, it would have to be an idiot to think that scenario ball is the same game as paintball.

In the way you describe how speedball teaches all of the core skills of shooting paintballs. and using cover, and communication, I also describe speedball as the distillation of all the potential varieties of the game (as in a single match/session played) to just that core set of activities. Consider this, how useful is snapshooting in 'hostage scenario', where it doesn't have to be a hostage, it can be an alien corpse, pressing the self destruct button, etc, where basically, you need to eliminate the opposition before they do whatever single thing that will force a draw. Tell me, where does snapshooting come into that?

Sure when all games are speedball in the woods, it makes sense that speedballers will win, a game purely focused on the shooting but, it's not really just speedball. If someone plays enough paintball of any type, where they learn allf of the same skills, then they will do just as well in either type of game (speedball in the woods vs speedball on turf). I got a laugh out of some kids on the sideline when they saw me in my camo ("Hey look at that milsim guy on the speedball field" with my Woodstalker Ion take the snake, and then take out 2/3 of the other team. Skills are skills. And yes, speedball hits on quite a few of them but, like I said, it's not all there is.

its always speedball in the woods. snap shooting is always important, its what you do when someone is shooting back at you and you need to shoot them, which is a situation that happens in all types paintball games, esp a hostage situation.

those aren't really different experiences though. and most importantly, the strategy and techniques to win with grenades, tanks, etc .... is just still paintball. use your firepower, move for the angles, shoot the other guy, win the game. every game format is elimination at its core, because we all came to play paintball. if we wanted to play freeze tag, we wouldnt spend thousands of dollars on guns and paint to shoot at each other. what differentiates paintball from freeze tag, is the eliminating people with a paintball gun part.

i dont get what is confusing here.

[cockerpunk]

The players who can switch aren't speedball players, they're paintball players.

yup. cause speedball teaches a core set of techniques and skills and strategies that win in all forms of paintball. cause its all the same game.

[uv_halo]

its always speedball in the woods. snap shooting is always important, its what you do when someone is shooting back at you and you need to shoot them, which is a situation that happens in all types paintball games, esp a hostage situation.

those aren't really different experiences though. and most importantly, the strategy and techniques to win with grenades, tanks, etc .... is just still paintball. use your firepower, move for the angles, shoot the other guy, win the game. every game format is elimination at its core, because we all came to play paintball. if we wanted to play freeze tag, we wouldnt spend thousands of dollars on guns and paint to shoot at each other. what differentiates paintball from freeze tag, is the eliminating people with a paintball gun part.

i dont get what is confusing here.

Here are some facts:

• Paintball, the game was invented in 1981
• In 1989, SC Village invents a new type of field and rules, and they call it "Speedball". Here's what SC Village has to say about it:
  • "Even though faster paced tournament paintball on smaller, open concept fields didn’t gain popularity and become the dominant form of paintball towards the late 90s, the initial concept of “Speedball” paintball was created almost a decade earlier."
  • "The first speedball exhibition held at SC Village took place on a relatively small field that featured only a handful of bunkers to use as cover, with the idea being that the focus would be on movement and creating excitement rather than hiding in the woods trying to stealthily eliminate the other team"

Given those facts, which of the following two conclusions is more likely?

• From 1981, to 1989, everyone was playing speedball, they just didn't know it until SC Village named a field. All of the older fields were smaller and more open with just a handful of bunkers, and the focus was always on movement and creating excitement. The older game was just as reliant on Snapshooting, laning and bunkering as the new game, people just didn't have a name for these things.
• From 1981 to 1989, Everyone was playing paintball and then along comes speedball as a new type of game. This new game is different enough to warrant a new name and, it's a subset and centered on the more action aspects (shooting, and lots of it) of the broader paintball game. Because of the shorter field format, laning and bunkering become more more common. Eventually (for a variety of reasons) this becomes the dominant form of the game, and some things (that were in the games between 81 and 89, like ambushing) were lost.

I don't get how you can conclude the former.is true. How is it that when speedball was invented, nobody (the journalists, the players (recreational and competitive), the field owners, post 1989 didn't just throw up their hands and call it a nothing burger?

Even with the second case, the idea that speedball can accelerate the development of many common paintball skills (angles, snapshooting, walking a trigger) isn't any less true.

When did you start playing? It's possible that you never experienced the game before speedball had taken over.

[cockerpunk]

Here are some facts:

• Paintball, the game was invented in 1981
• In 1989, SC Village invents a new type of field and rules, and they call it "Speedball". Here's what SC Village has to say about it:
  • "Even though faster paced tournament paintball on smaller, open concept fields didn’t gain popularity and become the dominant form of paintball towards the late 90s, the initial concept of “Speedball” paintball was created almost a decade earlier."
  • "The first speedball exhibition held at SC Village took place on a relatively small field that featured only a handful of bunkers to use as cover, with the idea being that the focus would be on movement and creating excitement rather than hiding in the woods trying to stealthily eliminate the other team"

Given those facts, which of the following two conclusions is more likely?

• From 1981, to 1989, everyone was playing speedball, they just didn't know it until SC Village named a field. All of the older fields were smaller and more open with just a handful of bunkers, and the focus was always on movement and creating excitement. The older game was just as reliant on Snapshooting, laning and bunkering as the new game, people just didn't have a name for these things.
• From 1981 to 1989, Everyone was playing paintball and then along comes speedball as a new type of game. This new game is different enough to warrant a new name and, it's a subset and centered on the more action aspects (shooting, and lots of it) of the broader paintball game. Because of the shorter field format, laning and bunkering become more more common. Eventually (for a variety of reasons) this becomes the dominant form of the game, and some things (that were in the games between 81 and 89, like ambushing) were lost.

I don't get how you can conclude the former.is true. How is it that when speedball was invented, nobody (the journalists, the players (recreational and competitive), the field owners, post 1989 didn't just throw up their hands and call it a nothing burger?

Even with the second case, the idea that speedball can accelerate the development of many common paintball skills (angles, snapshooting, walking a trigger) isn't any less true.

When did you start playing? It's possible that you never experienced the game before speedball had taken over.

just because we didnt use the term speedball doesnt mean it wasnt speedball. im looking at the function of the game, not the title, or the aesthetic. its always, just been speedball. because thats how the game itself functions.

[Reflex0283]

just because we didnt use the term speedball doesnt mean it wasnt speedball. im looking at the function of the game, not the title, or the aesthetic. its always, just been speedball. because thats how the game itself functions.

is the name really that important? Three other people here have been arguing practically the same point, just replacing "speedball" with "paintball." paintball in and of itself will have it's own "meta," as will any game or sport. Just because speedball is a format that quickly displays the core strategies of paintball doesn't mean that everything is speedball, it means that everything is paintball. Speedball, by virtue of being a fast-paced small field format, just happens to show these qualities a lot more than other formats

[Fubarius]

is the name really that important?

Of course it is. You see Speedball, in addition to a field format, is also a "look", a fashion, a culture, a set of acceptable behavior.

And if all paintball is speedball, then that look, that culture, is acceptable in ALL paintball games.

"Hey, lets dig out the camo and play in the woods"... speedballer shows up in a jersey.
"We're having a cops and robbers scenario game! Lets see some detective trench coats and gangster pin stripe suits folks!"... speedballer shows up in a jersey.
"The game is Protect the President. Each team has one player designated the president, you goal is to get your president to the other teams start box."... speedballer just tries to shoot everyone.
"There a bunch of themed props on the field for this scenario game, points will awarded for each prop turned in"... speedballer just tries to shoot everyone.
"We got a lot of young folk here today, so absolutely no shooting within 20ft of your target".... speedballer keeps trying to bunker people.

If speedball is instead just paintball, then all the "looks", fashion, culture, and sets of acceptable behavior of all paintball would also be speedball.
Camo BDU's would be speedball.
Asking players you've cornered to surrender is speedball.
Dressing up in costumes for theme days is speedball.
Rental players are speedball.
Magfed is speedball.
First Strike round are speedball.
Having a completely different objective each game is speedball.
You pull a G. Richie White and win the game with out firing a shot, or anyone even seeing you, that's speedball.
(I've done most of these on speedball fields )

[cockerpunk]

is the name really that important? Three other people here have been arguing practically the same point, just replacing "speedball" with "paintball." paintball in and of itself will have it's own "meta," as will any game or sport. Just because speedball is a format that quickly displays the core strategies of paintball doesn't mean that everything is speedball, it means that everything is paintball. Speedball, by virtue of being a fast-paced small field format, just happens to show these qualities a lot more than other formats

its not, im talking about the function of the game, and its just speedball. speedball is paintball and paintball is speedball. remember we were talking about if we have lost our target audience? and i just said that regardless of field, people pretty much do the same thing? thats been my point all along. you can dress it up however you want to, but its still the same game.

i have been clear from the start that the color, shape, aesthetic etc, is not relevant to the point i am making.

[RPP]

Such a strange hill to die on IMHO.

[cockerpunk]

it wasnt a bold claim ... have you seen how woodsballers play? they mostly stand behind hard cover and play the same as any speedball back player does.

[Fubarius]

i have been clear from the start that the color, shape, aesthetic etc, is not relevant to the point i am making.

AH, but the color, shape, aesthetic, etc, IS important to Speedball.

If I say there's a Speedball game going on, right now, what do YOU expect it to look like? First thought only.

What are the bunkers made of?

What are the players wearing?

How many players are there?

What equipment are they using?

99% of the folks here would probably picture a 5 on 5 game on a sup'air field in a traditional tournament layout with all players wearing jerseys, paintball designed pants, pod packs (vertical, on the back only), shooting ramping electros wit HPA and motorized hoppers.

That's a very, very specific thing.



Of course since I'm posting this on a Wednesday at 10am in November the game closest to me would most likely be 8 vs 8, on an indoor sup'air field, with the players wearing rented camo jumpsuits shooting .50 cal rental guns. But I doubt there's a single person reading this who would consider that "real" Speedball. It sure what isn't portrayed in our game's media.

[cockerpunk]

AH, but the color, shape, aesthetic, etc, IS important to Speedball.

If I say there's a Speedball game going on, right now, what do YOU expect it to look like? First thought only.

What are the bunkers made of?

What are the players wearing?

How many players are there?

What equipment are they using?

99% of the folks here would probably picture a 5 on 5 game on a sup'air field in a traditional tournament layout with all players wearing jerseys, paintball designed pants, pod packs (vertical, on the back only), shooting ramping electros wit HPA and motorized hoppers.

That's a very, very specific thing.



Of course since I'm posting this on a Wednesday at 10am in November the game closest to me would most likely be 8 vs 8, on an indoor sup'air field, with the players wearing rented camo jumpsuits shooting .50 cal rental guns. But I doubt there's a single person reading this who would consider that "real" Speedball. It sure what isn't portrayed in our game's media.

i was clear as day in my first post on the topic that i wasnt talking about any of these things. :shrug:

[Fubarius]

i was clear as day in my first post on the topic that i wasnt talking about any of these things. :shrug:

No, you were clear on your first post, and second, and third, and so on, that you WERE talking about ALL of those things, because you said Speedball. You said it a lot, over and over again. That has a very specific meaning and intention and includes all the tropes, meta, style, and stereotypes of the word. Otherwise you might have said "small field total elimination", but I don't feel that's what you were intending. Maybe you were, but you kept referring to 5 on 5 on a sup'air course with everyone wearing jerseys and shooting ramping electros.

And whether or not you intended too, your argument was saying: Since all paintball games are speedball, and any differences from speedball are irrelevant, then all games different than speedball are irrelevant, thus should not exists, and we should all be playing ONLY speedball, and no other game formats, rule sets, styles, or aesthetics should be allowed.

That will NOT help. And the issue is the "sport" (industry, promoters, and players) sure seemed to TRY to do that back at the game's peak. So we got too many players not only treating every game as "small field total elimination", but too many are very much trying to turn all games into Speedball, and that drives away the players who Don't want every game to be speedball, who enjoy large field capture the flag, or midsize field freeze tag (that would be a medic game), or just want to LARP army.

The issue isn't did we lose our target audience, we picked the WRONG target audience to concentrate on and forgot the other audiences who already wanted to play, and instead told them they weren't wanted.

[Cal440]

Well said

[Chuck E Ducky]

How do you figure paintball forgot the other audience? What are you looking for that you can’t get from a woodsball game any given weekend. There are even mash up games like 10 man ware competitive games are played in the woods. The problem is, there are only a few places that will support all the different genres of Paintball. Economics and location plays a big part. Not everyone has the options if they aren’t willing to travel. Fields naturally specialize into what works for their location.

[cockerpunk]

No, you were clear on your first post, and second, and third, and so on, that you WERE talking about ALL of those things, because you said Speedball. You said it a lot, over and over again. That has a very specific meaning and intention and includes all the tropes, meta, style, and stereotypes of the word. Otherwise you might have said "small field total elimination", but I don't feel that's what you were intending. Maybe you were, but you kept referring to 5 on 5 on a sup'air course with everyone wearing jerseys and shooting ramping electros.

And whether or not you intended too, your argument was saying: Since all paintball games are speedball, and any differences from speedball are irrelevant, then all games different than speedball are irrelevant, thus should not exists, and we should all be playing ONLY speedball, and no other game formats, rule sets, styles, or aesthetics should be allowed.

That will NOT help. And the issue is the "sport" (industry, promoters, and players) sure seemed to TRY to do that back at the game's peak. So we got too many players not only treating every game as "small field total elimination", but too many are very much trying to turn all games into Speedball, and that drives away the players who Don't want every game to be speedball, who enjoy large field capture the flag, or midsize field freeze tag (that would be a medic game), or just want to LARP army.

The issue isn't did we lose our target audience, we picked the WRONG target audience to concentrate on and forgot the other audiences who already wanted to play, and instead told them they weren't wanted.

no, thats not what speedball is. speedball is shooting a lot of paint to cover your angles and move up, gunfighting, snap shooting etc and thus winning. you can dress it up however you want to, but like the fundamentals of how to win a paintball game don't change, and speedball distills them down to their fundamentals. if you care about the cosmetics of the cover, thats on you, but if is pallets, trees or barrels or forts, its still just the same game of speedball. if you care about winning a paintball game, the skills are just speedball. thats it.

if it feels different to you, you misunderstand the fundamentals of the game.

not sure i could be more clear.

maybe you just arnt reading my posts?

i dont really think the sport can be saved per se (its seen it peak, and it wont go back), and i dont think doing cosmetic things to the cover or wearing different clothes is going to solve that. we lost our target audience, when we marketed a pretty expensive sport, to children.

to the point of this conversation though, i think it further hurts the sport that supposedly the people trying to save it, are busy arguing that different cosmetics make the game different, and thats a bad message to tell new players, cause they will play less paintball then. if im a 17 year old kid, and i like whatever game of paintball i have played, and some 50 year old comes through telling me that if i play at a different field, its all different, new skills, new gear, and im gonna get my butt kicked, etc, im probably not going to do that. number 1, that old man would be dead wrong (not the first time ive seen that happen in paintball lol). but that is a poor marketing strategy. the whole thing reeks very much of "pumps in airball? who would do such a thing?" when in reality, pumps are best in airball, and fucking terrible to use in the woods. the similarities of the game regardless of field, cosmetics, team size etc, are all FAR larger than any differences, from a players perspective. so large in fact, that they largely dont make a difference in terms of any players decision making while on the field.

dont try and get all holy on me lol.

[uv_halo]

just because we didnt use the term speedball doesnt mean it wasnt speedball. im looking at the function of the game, not the title, or the aesthetic. its always, just been speedball. because thats how the game itself functions.

You neglect to consider that at the MINIMUM, the EXPERIENCED players and, field operators (two overlapping groups there) felt it was different enough to give it a new name. I'm speaking from first hand experience that the games I played on that day in 1993 (plus all the outlaw ball before that) were all very different from that first speedball match I experienced. It wasn't just me- the way all of the more experienced people played in the earlier matches of the day, played differently- at the very least, they all shot more in that match.

I'm not talking about the action of aiming and firing the gun, the projectile starting at 300FPS, and hitting someone for an elimination- THAT IS ALL PAINTBALL.

Some additional facts that you seem to be overlooking. in your comment to RPP, you say:

it wasnt a bold claim ... have you seen how woodsballers play? they mostly stand behind hard cover and play the same as any speedball back player does.

The reason why most of the game these days (and maybe since before you started playing as you didn't answer my question when you started) is so similar to speedball is because field operators since the mid 90s have been striving to make their woodsball fields more like their speedball fields (abundance of hard cover, every 8-15ft, shorter time limits, and increased player density). Additionally, a lot of true speedball players (as in folks who prefer or even compete in speedball) find themselves in the woods.

And, what do you think happens to the new (timid, inexperienced) players that find themselves on a speedball in the woods field, surrounded by true speedballers? They learn from the speedballers.

And another angle: How important is laning (as in firing shots at a specific angle to prevent movement) to competitive speedball (except stock class)? Very. How important is laning in large, mostly wooded (no manmade structures) environment? Not very unless you're near a boundary and keeping them from moving up that tape. in the middle of a large field, with a long time limit- useless. They'll go around you.

[Fubarius]

not sure i could be more clear.

Sure you could have, by not using the word speedball. That has way too many specific connotations. Besides, modern speedball is boring, and not all paintball is boring.

Besides, speedball is just artificial woodsball. The snake? just some fallen logs that always seem to be on the side line of any small to medium woods field. Doritos? Just a row of pine trees.
Admittedly airball fields are a mediocre analog to a good woods, hyperball is obviously better, but at it's core it's just a bunch of trees and bushes.

i dont really think the sport can be saved per se (its seen it peak, and it wont go back), and i dont think doing cosmetic things to the cover or wearing different clothes is going to solve that. we lost our target audience, when we marketed a pretty expensive sport, to children.

I agree the marketing to children was a horrible idea in hind sight. I disagree on the "expensive" part. I played for quite a few years, every weekend, never spent more than a couple hundred on gear. That's a culture issue. Nobody NEEDS a $1000 gun. A tippmann, a mask, and a bag of 500 is all you need. Everything else is optional. And there's nothing wrong with optional, I got a LOT of optional stuff, but as I've been saying for years, if you really love the game you'd be out there with a Slingshot and handful of balls in your pocket if that's all you could afford. (Note: also done that)

to the point of this conversation though, i think it further hurts the sport that supposedly the people trying to save it, are busy arguing that different cosmetics make the game different, and thats a bad message to tell new players, cause they will play less paintball then. if im a 17 year old kid, and i like whatever game of paintball i have played, and some 50 year old comes through telling me that if i play at a different field, its all different, new skills, new gear, and im gonna get my butt kicked, etc, im probably not going to do that.

That's not the intention at all. The issue isn't keeping a player who already likes to play, it's keeping the player who tried something but didn't like an aspect. Too many mono-fields. In my ideal world a new player would start on say a small woods field. How was it? A bit too fast? No problem, next game we're ALL (important part, no one field wonders) going to the bigger woods field. Feels to fake? Like what's your motivation? Game after that it's Attack and Defend on the fort field, protect the ancient idol from the marauding bandits. Want a bit more "realism"? We'll swap that Chronus rental with a TMC (still hopper for now, but feels more like an AR10) and go to our Urban Close Combat field. Want more action? We'll finish the day on our super fast speedball field. Wishing it was more like "playing Army", well next weekend we got a big WWII theme scenario game. Wish it was more nerdy, more out there? Next month our Star Wars themed scenario game, sign up early to pick Empire or Rebel, there's a prize for best costume at that one.

Everyone has preferences, and in a perfect world everyone plays, every game, even the ones that aren't there favorite, and they do it to support the other players whose favorite field is that field. No one gets frustrated that it's the same game, over and over and over again. Eventually their favorite, the one they feel most comfortable, comes back into rotation. Maximum fun for the maximum number of people.

Now that's an ideal, a perfect world, but there's been stretches where we got so close to it. That's what frustrates me. Instead you end up going to a facility with a dozen awesome fields and the open play ref only wants to run games on the junkyard field since he's 1: too lazy to walk all the way to the other fields, and 2: it's the closest to speedball and all games are just speedball anyways. (the amount of eye roll I made while typing that last bit caused me literal pain)

[cockerpunk]

You neglect to consider that at the MINIMUM, the EXPERIENCED players and, field operators (two overlapping groups there) felt it was different enough to give it a new name. I'm speaking from first hand experience that the games I played on that day in 1993 (plus all the outlaw ball before that) were all very different from that first speedball match I experienced. It wasn't just me- the way all of the more experienced people played in the earlier matches of the day, played differently- at the very least, they all shot more in that match.

I'm not talking about the action of aiming and firing the gun, the projectile starting at 300FPS, and hitting someone for an elimination- THAT IS ALL PAINTBALL.

Some additional facts that you seem to be overlooking. in your comment to RPP, you say:



The reason why most of the game these days (and maybe since before you started playing as you didn't answer my question when you started) is so similar to speedball is because field operators since the mid 90s have been striving to make their woodsball fields more like their speedball fields (abundance of hard cover, every 8-15ft, shorter time limits, and increased player density). Additionally, a lot of true speedball players (as in folks who prefer or even compete in speedball) find themselves in the woods.

And, what do you think happens to the new (timid, inexperienced) players that find themselves on a speedball in the woods field, surrounded by true speedballers? They learn from the speedballers.

And another angle: How important is laning (as in firing shots at a specific angle to prevent movement) to competitive speedball (except stock class)? Very. How important is laning in large, mostly wooded (no manmade structures) environment? Not very unless you're near a boundary and keeping them from moving up that tape. in the middle of a large field, with a long time limit- useless. They'll go around you.

i am not the first nor the one with the most compelling post saying this, but ill say it again ...

field owners aren't brainwashed morons looking a magazine covers, they are trying to make a buck. and they are the operational tip of the spear in terms of trying things and seeing what works.

and while we all wish we could engineer the perfect game of paintball for our taste, the reality is that field operators and refs are the ones who actually make the game real, and they see with there own eyes what works and what doesn't. and this is what works. what doesn't work, isnt played anymore cause it didnt keep the doors open.

[cockerpunk]

Besides, speedball is just artificial woodsball. The snake? just some fallen logs that always seem to be on the side line of any small to medium woods field. Doritos? Just a row of pine trees.Admittedly airball fields are a mediocre analog to a good woods, hyperball is obviously better, but at it's core it's just a bunch of trees and bushes.

you are so close to getting it.