Has paintball lost it's target audience?

[uv_halo]

i dont really think the sport can be saved per se (its seen it peak, and it wont go back), and i dont think doing cosmetic things to the cover or wearing different clothes is going to solve that. we lost our target audience, when we marketed a pretty expensive sport, to children.

to the point of this conversation though, i think it further hurts the sport that supposedly the people trying to save it, are busy arguing that different cosmetics make the game different, and thats a bad message to tell new players, cause they will play less paintball then. if im a 17 year old kid, and i like whatever game of paintball i have played, and some 50 year old comes through telling me that if i play at a different field, its all different, new skills, new gear, and im gonna get my butt kicked, etc, im probably not going to do that. number 1, that old man would be dead wrong (not the first time ive seen that happen in paintball lol). but that is a poor marketing strategy. the whole thing reeks very much of "pumps in airball? who would do such a thing?" when in reality, pumps are best in airball, and fucking terrible to use in the woods. the similarities of the game regardless of field, cosmetics, team size etc, are all FAR larger than any differences, from a players perspective. so large in fact, that they largely dont make a difference in terms of any players decision making while on the field.

dont try and get all holy on me lol.

In regards to prices, what do you think costs more, paintball clothing or surplus clothing? Neither game requires specific clothing. Lots of folks start just wearing dark clothing in natural environments, and that's what they will continue to wear. In regards to guns, guns change how you play. If you have more ammo and higher rates of fire, you can afford to be more aggressive. If teams are balanced the gun requirement is lower. That being said, the field should rent the same firepower that is seen on the field. And guess which type of field encourages more shooting, and thus a greater expenditure of money on paint? Speedball: you know where everyone can reach everyone all the time?

My proposed idea of making the game more like it was in the late 80s until the early 90s, is based on the premise that if you describe a game where you're going into the woods and are going to play a game where you shoot each other, to a teen or adult who's never heard of paintball, they aren't thinking of anything like speedball (a small field where everyone can see everyone at the start, and every piece of cover on the field is in range of every other piece of cover).

They are thinking "What can I wear that won't stand out in the woods (because most folks don't own camo), and won't get ruined"? "What kind of shoes should I wear? "Are there machine guns?", "What about grenades", "What about SNIPER RIFLES?". They are thinking of other shooting games they have likely already experienced (i.e. CoD, Battlefield, etc). They picture themselves sneaking around the woods (some admitting that they'll do it poorly), because they want to shoot first rather than being shot at. They're even apprehensive about getting shot for the first time. Maybe they want to sneak all the way around the field to come up on the other team from behind.

You know the motivation for my oldest kid (late teen) when he said he wanted to play? He wanted to see how well he could shoot and move (to include sneaking, or even shooting on the move) in REAL LIFE vs all of the video games he's played. Paintball would do well to build off of that. If you given them what they expected, and make it a memorable experience, they will want to do it again, even if they don't 'score' very well.

Sure would some people just like to get in a 20min match where they're shooting from the start of the game, until the end (or they're eliminated)? You bet. Give them that game. But don't make that the standard for everyone, all the time. One of my favorite parks did "King of the Hill" (inspired by a Halo map apparently). It was a very speedball like field (able to shoot from corner to corner, lots of manmade hard cover, no concealment, with a short time limit). At the center is an octagon 8ft across with 3ft walls on all sides except the sides facing the long edges of the field, where they were open. The only way to win is to have a teammate get into the octagon and stay there for two minutes. They had immediate re-spawns. They did this game at the end of the day. Why? Because on a field that allows full auto and respawns, new players would burn through their entire day's purchase way too fast.

[Heavy_D]

[cockerpunk]

In regards to prices, what do you think costs more, paintball clothing or surplus clothing? Neither game requires specific clothing. Lots of folks start just wearing dark clothing in natural environments, and that's what they will continue to wear. In regards to guns, guns change how you play. If you have more ammo and higher rates of fire, you can afford to be more aggressive. If teams are balanced the gun requirement is lower. That being said, the field should rent the same firepower that is seen on the field. And guess which type of field encourages more shooting, and thus a greater expenditure of money on paint? Speedball: you know where everyone can reach everyone all the time?

My proposed idea of making the game more like it was in the late 80s until the early 90s, is based on the premise that if you describe a game where you're going into the woods and are going to play a game where you shoot each other, to a teen or adult who's never heard of paintball, they aren't thinking of anything like speedball (a small field where everyone can see everyone at the start, and every piece of cover on the field is in range of every other piece of cover).

They are thinking "What can I wear that won't stand out in the woods (because most folks don't own camo), and won't get ruined"? "What kind of shoes should I wear? "Are there machine guns?", "What about grenades", "What about SNIPER RIFLES?". They are thinking of other shooting games they have likely already experienced (i.e. CoD, Battlefield, etc). They picture themselves sneaking around the woods (some admitting that they'll do it poorly), because they want to shoot first rather than being shot at. They're even apprehensive about getting shot for the first time. Maybe they want to sneak all the way around the field to come up on the other team from behind.

You know the motivation for my oldest kid (late teen) when he said he wanted to play? He wanted to see how well he could shoot and move (to include sneaking, or even shooting on the move) in REAL LIFE vs all of the video games he's played. Paintball would do well to build off of that. If you given them what they expected, and make it a memorable experience, they will want to do it again, even if they don't 'score' very well.

Sure would some people just like to get in a 20min match where they're shooting from the start of the game, until the end (or they're eliminated)? You bet. Give them that game. But don't make that the standard for everyone, all the time. One of my favorite parks did "King of the Hill" (inspired by a Halo map apparently). It was a very speedball like field (able to shoot from corner to corner, lots of manmade hard cover, no concealment, with a short time limit). At the center is an octagon 8ft across with 3ft walls on all sides except the sides facing the long edges of the field, where they were open. The only way to win is to have a teammate get into the octagon and stay there for two minutes. They had immediate re-spawns. They did this game at the end of the day. Why? Because on a field that allows full auto and respawns, new players would burn through their entire day's purchase way too fast.

im not sure what this post has to do with my claims. i never made any claims about clothing, and i explicitly endorsed sneaking around (100% a speedball skill too), and never argued that the only paintball game is one where you blast each other for 20 minutes. im not sure what you think your getting at but its not clear to me.

[uv_halo]

You made the point of the cost of the game, and I don't dispute that it is an expensive hobby, I just added more to that in how the modern speedball format (to include speedball in the woods) costs more than the older large format games.

[uv_halo]

i am not the first nor the one with the most compelling post saying this, but ill say it again ...

field owners aren't brainwashed morons looking a magazine covers, they are trying to make a buck. and they are the operational tip of the spear in terms of trying things and seeing what works.

and while we all wish we could engineer the perfect game of paintball for our taste, the reality is that field operators and refs are the ones who actually make the game real, and they see with there own eyes what works and what doesn't. and this is what works. what doesn't work, isnt played anymore cause it didnt keep the doors open.

You're right. Field operators are trying to make a buck. The sad part is that the industry showed them and told them how if every game is speedball, players will shoot more, and the field operators will get more money from paint sales. "Oh, you've just got to check out this new double finger trigger that lets players shoot more in a match and still be good for insurance." How well were field operators able to stem that tide? Not at all. Imagine the shit storm if a field operator in that time said "No Double Finger Triggers".

Combine that with an overwhelming lack of field operator interest in selling an experience. Very few places (like CPX for example) had the right thing in mind when they built out there parks but, they are the outliers. For comparison, how well do you think Laser Tag (you know the places parents take their kids to) would do if they gave them a big open warehouse and a bunch of inflatable bunkers? Poorly. Every laser tag place has fancy lighting, music and other sounds playing, sometimes fog machines, score keeping for individual players and re-spawns, and firing mode unlocks. Most of them even have walls, doorways, windows etc (all built to code) to form a maze like structure. Kids will go back again and again, even if they don't play well. It's not just the distillation to the 'mechanic of shooting the gun' they're selling. if that was the case, the indoor airball field would do fine.

Now, it is true that in the late 80s, the major 'experience' being sold was war, often with direct references to a particular battle or war. I don't believe that necessarily has to be the same. It just takes more creativity to think up some sort of scenario/setting where folks would be running around and shooting one another.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Speedball is the most level playing field you could possibly get in the game of paintball. People that act like ROF takes the skill out of them game have never played enough or at a level required to be competitive on that field against some of the best players in paintball. It’s also not an individual game it requires seamless teamwork, communication, and lighting fast reflexes the average player don’t even think about. It requires money, practice, detection, and athleticism to play at the top.

People who shit on it just can’t hang. But that’s ok it’s not for everyone. But those kids practicing every weekend drilling the latest layout buying the latest gear are driving innovation and spending massive amounts of money to do so. You go to ware the good teams practice you will be lucky to get spins as a walk on without a team. People fly into places to practice top teams and feeder teams for events. It’s a massive chunk of the market that’s why it gets the attention. Rec ball / woods is a big chunk as well but it’s way more casual than competitive. Don’t get me wrong competitive woods is a blast. Probably my all time favorite way to play. But the majority of paintball dose not have that luxury. They Do not have any problems keeping there hand me down Spyder and rocking whatever mask they snagged at a yard sale out of a Walmart bundle. Magfed changed that a bit and was good for the woodsball rec milsim types. It’s become very popular and with that draws its own ego infused bow hards that could rally with the best speedball tools.

The idea that one is more elite than the other is stupid. The idea that a particular genre of paintball is the reason for a decline in participation is stupid. Paintball is directly tied to the economics and location. This is a luxury game and when people don’t have the extra cash to spend the first thing they cut out are luxury things like paintball. It’s really that simple. No ESPN special, social media add, or commercial will help if people don’t have the money to play or a place to play or time to play.

Best thing paintball could is make a better paintball at this point. You couldn’t make it cheaper but you could definitely make it better. Players will return when the they have the time and money to do so. The North East got hammered with back to back rainy weekends all spring and summer. So numbers are down this year. But on any given nice day the fields are packed from what I have seen. So no I don’t believe paintball lost its target audience. I believe the target audience is tightening their budgets and cutting luxury expenses and will likely return when the budget allows them to do so.

[flyweightnate]

Evidently the "target audience" is just a series of pedantic motte-and-bailey arguments about how nobody is pure enough for the true speedball unless they've competed effectively at all levels of the game and have become enlightened.

I'm just here to decide how to introduce my kids into the sport. Which I probably won't do at some of the fields being discussed.

And that's the more important discussion.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Outlaw with friends is the best situation for that and or MCB get togethers. Controlled environments. It definitely isn’t the local Xball field against the semi pro team practicing the latest layouts for the next event.

[flyweightnate]

Exactly

[The Hobbit]

Serious question, what actions do some of you expect the industry to take, in order to enlarge the audience? PE already makes magfed options and semi routinely highlights scenario/woods play.

Is Tom Cole and MLPB supposed to take up the mantle of advertising rec play? Seems like a lot to ask when that isn’t their “product”. Though maybe they could make (better?) efforts to advertise fields near events.

Does someone need to make a series highlight rec and scenario events? Probably not the worst idea but someone would need to step up, with money, to make it happen.

on a serious note, the old Specops Paintball game finder could be a valuable resource. Somewhere that you can post your outlaw game or mini scenario event. Problem is where can you host this that will get eyes on it, so inactive players potentially see and dust off their equipment?

[Chuck E Ducky]

You will get better results posting in the regional section here. We have had great results in the North East organizing pump days and get togethers this way.

[Chuck E Ducky]

70% of the paintball market is rec

Paintball has grown steadily with the exception of Covid years at a rate of approximately 6.1% each year.

North America holds a 40% share of paintball followed by Europe who holds 28% and Canada at approximately 8-10%.

So paintball is still growing and projected to do so in 2025 and beyond at a steady rate of about 6% each year. Number of fields are down by approximately 1000 business after Covid they haven’t recovered however participation is up year after year. Including this year. So statistically Paintball has grown at a healthy rate and doing just fine.

[flyweightnate]

It would cannibalize the market in the short term for long term growth, but here's my suggestion:

A la carte packages for outlaw "fields" -

Durable, low end (dare I say pump) guns and air (12g is cheap). Paint deals. Masks, color-coded for teams. Armbands as backup.

Insurance that can be paid for on an as- needed basis, one weekend at a time.

And a referral to local proshops, and info on upcoming local tournaments.


Every industry needs to build a pipeline.

[sonixr7]

Identifying the opponent should be one of the most important aspects of a team based activity, more important in paintball since we are using equipment that covers the eyes/face.

I always wanted fields to use some sort of mesh jesrsey, like practice soccer ones, and make one side wear them. Or shirts vs skins.

I know it would affect the “stealth” part of paintball.

[Fubarius]

Ok, here's something that looks like a total tangent and off topic, but I believe it has some merit to this specific discussion concerning target audience demographics and the potential player pipeline.

I need a quick survey concerning backyard neighborhood games.

Not games you played at school, or part of a class of some sort, and definitely NOT an organized sport of some type, but games you played, outside, with other children. Could be with friends, siblings, cousins, just the random other kids at a park or in your neighborhood. Set up, organized (for as little as they were), and initiated by kids for kids.

First state which generation you belong too (or identify with for the folks on the edges). I could ask your age but this doesn't need to be that accurate.

Then, as a child, say ages 6-12, which of the following neighborhood games did you play?

Hide and seek.

Kick the can.

Dodgeball.

Kickball.

Other unorganized sport. (if the phrase "ghost runner on 2nd" mean anything to you, you know what I'm talking about)

Capture the Flag.

Red Rover.

Cops and Robbers

Cowboys and Indians.

Playing Army. (note: while the last three are of course variations of the "bang bang, I got you!" genre, there are of course significant differences. The first being Bang Bang while doing finger guns, the second being chuckchuck Bang miming a lever action, and the third being Brapapapapapa while pretending to hold a machine gun)

Tag.

Freeze Tag.

Flashlight Tag.

Watergun Tag.

Watergun Fights. (note, for this survey a Watergun fight means squirting people just to get them wet, in Watergun Tag the person squirted is "out" and thus eliminated from the game, local conventions may differ)

And list other ones I haven't mentioned yet. I'll update if needed.


Myself, Gen X, and all the games currently listed.


Thank you for your time, I do believe this WILL be useful.

[Fubarius]

Thank you flyweightnate, geography may matter, but I think more in naming conventions than actual games. The whole DuckDuckGoose/DuckDuckGreyDuck argument for example. And yes I'm a rural midwestern Grey Duck boy.

Reflex0283, it would be helpful to know which games you didn't play specifically, especially from your age group. You can do it through PM if you prefer. If you got the time, thanks.

[Tarsun2]

"elder millennial" i think is the term (86)...
all the tags pretty much.
butts up was another one. (theres another name that i forgot).
Kick the can.
lots of running around. Absolute tons of miles on my bmx bike (when i got a little older).
lots of hiking and storming around in the woods.
north east coast
was of the era of calling momma dukes collect (in HS) and telling her where to pick me up when they ask for your name.
"Will you accept a collect call from... FrOnT LoBbY...?" lol

[uv_halo]

Gen X:
I did all of those except maybe watergun tag, and kick the can.
As a Tween and into my Teen years, my group of friends migrated to:
Waterguns (Entertech for the win)
Lazer Tag (the branded infrared guns)
Rubber Band guns (full auto capable, with 20-30shots, bitch to reload), rules for 'grenade launcher' rubber bands.
Outlaw paintball (didn't refer to it as such, just went onto state land, and had battles, on the same land where we played rubber band guns)

[Magmoormaster]

Paintball has grown steadily with the exception of Covid years at a rate of approximately 6.1% each year.

Where are you seeing these numbers? I'm seeing the exact opposite. Statista shows paintball participation in the US steadily declining by 100k-300k almost every year since 2010. Sales shows similar, though it's been about flat for the last 4 or 5 years.

[Chuck E Ducky]

AI market analysis it used multi sources and averaged them. I believe it I even sources Statista. Participation may be down but Paintball as a business is on the rise. So people
may be playing less but buying more. Or its profit margins are getting better. They are selling $250 hopper now so…🤷🏻

[Tarsun2]

there might be a revival with Mil-Sim (in the most general form) much like airsoft (extreme tactical gear and attire); but this wouldnt be the paintball as we see it today. i dont think it would ever lead to competitions either...
To me, paintball (as a sport) is like the sport of sailing. (kindda).

there are some televised events but not much and there are small groups of hobby racing that exist only in their own small realm (in one size or another). My father sailed J24's and everything was a big deal in their group, but nowhere else. the sport is small and very niche and that was kindda it. you also dont NEED the latest and greatest to go racing, but to be competitive, it helps.

id be $ that the sailing community has had the same conversation that were having here.

[cockerpunk]

im not sure what this post has to do with my claims. i never made any claims about clothing, and i explicitly endorsed sneaking around (100% a speedball skill too), and never argued that the only paintball game is one where you blast each other for 20 minutes. im not sure what you think your getting at but its not clear to me.

speedball can be the cheapest form with a pump gun. :shrug:

[uv_halo]

Pump guns can make any game format the cheapest. Your point?

[cockerpunk]

idk, you are the one saying im adding costs, and im not.

[cockerpunk]

Speedball is the most level playing field you could possibly get in the game of paintball. People that act like ROF takes the skill out of them game have never played enough or at a level required to be competitive on that field against some of the best players in paintball. It’s also not an individual game it requires seamless teamwork, communication, and lighting fast reflexes the average player don’t even think about. It requires money, practice, detection, and athleticism to play at the top.

People who shit on it just can’t hang. But that’s ok it’s not for everyone. But those kids practicing every weekend drilling the latest layout buying the latest gear are driving innovation and spending massive amounts of money to do so. You go to ware the good teams practice you will be lucky to get spins as a walk on without a team. People fly into places to practice top teams and feeder teams for events. It’s a massive chunk of the market that’s why it gets the attention. Rec ball / woods is a big chunk as well but it’s way more casual than competitive. Don’t get me wrong competitive woods is a blast. Probably my all time favorite way to play. But the majority of paintball dose not have that luxury. They Do not have any problems keeping there hand me down Spyder and rocking whatever mask they snagged at a yard sale out of a Walmart bundle. Magfed changed that a bit and was good for the woodsball rec milsim types. It’s become very popular and with that draws its own ego infused bow hards that could rally with the best speedball tools.

The idea that one is more elite than the other is stupid. The idea that a particular genre of paintball is the reason for a decline in participation is stupid. Paintball is directly tied to the economics and location. This is a luxury game and when people don’t have the extra cash to spend the first thing they cut out are luxury things like paintball. It’s really that simple. No ESPN special, social media add, or commercial will help if people don’t have the money to play or a place to play or time to play.

Best thing paintball could is make a better paintball at this point. You couldn’t make it cheaper but you could definitely make it better. Players will return when the they have the time and money to do so. The North East got hammered with back to back rainy weekends all spring and summer. So numbers are down this year. But on any given nice day the fields are packed from what I have seen. So no I don’t believe paintball lost its target audience. I believe the target audience is tightening their budgets and cutting luxury expenses and will likely return when the budget allows them to do so.

im not arguing anyone is more elite than anyone else.

im just saying that speedball is the fundamental core game no matter what format of paintball you are playing. the skills, decisions, strategies etc, you learn in speedball, are applicable at a fundamental level to every other format of game of paintball.

an elite player/team will beat anyone on any format, on any field. why? CAUSE ITS THE SAME GAME

[Chuck E Ducky]

Agreed

[cockerpunk]

Not sure where you are getting this from, but that is not at all true for NXL and ICPL, they are in fact different games.
The basics translate, but if you matched a solid NXL team that has only played on airball fields with ramping electros against an amateur ICPL team in the woods with mechs... they would get munched. I'm sure the reverse is true too, but NXL pros aren't necessarily the best players of every type of paintball. They almost exclusively practice and play a super specific format.

a pro NXL team would wipe the fucking floor with an am ICPL team in the woods.

have you ever seen pros play in the woods? they fucking clean up. hell half the winning ICPL teams are speedball pros lol.

CUASE ITS THE SAME GAME

[uv_halo]

I remember NPPL players coming over to living legends and not wrecking the game. I even specifically remember one such player just entering the game at the point closest to him, be damned with the formal insertion points, etc....

[Chuck E Ducky]

Big game is all about numbers and objectives do people really care who wins big games? It’s the worst type of paintball.

[RPP]

Naaaaa. Big games are the most fun. I remember at one year at supergame we were sick of pushing the DMZ and we stepped off to take a break on the sidelines without getting out of the field. As we were chatting I figured out that we could literally go the opposite direction and play heavy woodsball or the other direction and play hyper ball.... literally 3/4 different play styles and environments all in one.