Metadyne Thumper/Phoenix Redux

[XEMON]

Field update:

I took mine to the field this past week and ... It went ... ? ...

Here are a few points:
- Shot at 220 fine, started breaking over that (~70f ambient; .690 freak insert)
- Crazy amount of double feed, normal stroke and detent in place.
- After 1 game, all the mounting screws for the frame were loose, everything was flapping around. Again, 1 game ...
- the spring recess on the back got dented in by the hammer/hammer pusher so the spring compresses to the side. I'm gonna make a spring guide to prevent that spring from bending sideways.

So ... Got some work to get a normal game going ..

Edit:
I talked to Scott and I have a bit of a different perspective on things. He pointed me towards a potential alignment issue causing the breaks over 220fps. I will test and report back 👍

[RuleOfSines]

I was previously giving them the benefit of the doubt that it would work better in warmer weather, but it appears that was unwarranted

[XEMON]

I talked with Scott and they are starting to see that issue on their markers too. If the sliding elements (front piece+rods+thumb pusher) are not aligned properly they get wired air flow and break paint in the breach.
I need to make some test and see if I can replicate that.

Also they upgraded the orings they are using so they shouldn't come off the main valve rod shaft.
Again, I'll test it and see how it goes

[XEMON]

Got mine working! Only needed a completely redesigned front end.

I went a different route on mine.
I wanted the ball to seat in the bore too, so I pushed the freak insert back 😁

[XEMON]

No detent yet, but i have a few ideas I need to try.
I do have a way to retain the insert so it doesn't flop around when pumping.

[superman]

were you able to use a normal back with an xl insert or did you have to make a custom tip to too?

[XEMON]

I dont have an XL insert on hand, but i dont think the length will match up.
Right now i have a spacer in front of the insert. Long term i will either get a set of XL and trim them to length or make a barrel that is bored at teh right depth for the insert. There is always the option of getting custom barrels made ...

[Timefreak17]

So, tested the phoenix out with 40 rounds.
stock class silver phoenix, w/ silenco barrel and pwr inserts .687 and .683
input psi- 500psi
Fps- 254 avg. Tuned from lowest to high and backed off till started dropping again.
No side paddles installed
With slight alterations to the trigger catch and rear trigger spring holder.

observations:

1) this thing will not go above 256 fps when turned all the way up, probably too much space around ball, barrel, and breech.

2) only one break 7 shots in, then ok after that.

3) the pwr inserts, even at .687 size stick into the breach with a lip. So my theory is that either the detents are to stiff and sharp that the ball gets cut by them, or ramps them up into the lip of barrel. Or a combination of detents and the lip from breech to barrel becoming smaller smacks the round into the lip and breaking paint.

4) one screw on the trigger assembly runs right into the velocity adjustment hole. So I had to back it out in order to adjust velocity. Good thing this marker is so easy to take apart...lol. sigh

5) very light crunching when pumping. Really didn't feel it was a problem.

6) feeding paint still sucks, need to trim the ball catch a tad more.

7) no problem with feeding from feed to breech. (No double feeds)

8) i like the on/off for the air

9) felt fine pumping from rear or barrel. I have bigger hands so a little easier for me to thumb pump the rear.

10) the breech and barrel movement has a small click when seated all the way flush. I feel it could use a little more room so the barrel doesn't need a slight hand seating flush to the back of the breech.

11) shot pretty accurately and liked the adjustable grip. Needs some room with the macro line for more play and adjustment.

12) it is still shooting, so yay!

13) why is it two toned in color? Two different grey/silvers on the anodizing.

14) looking forward to trying it out in a game to see how it really holds up. Fingers crossed.

[XEMON]

For #4 out of the 3 frame screw, 1 is shorter as to not protrude into the velocity adjustment hole.
For #5, I had pretty bad spring crunch, and found a defect in the back block of the body that was catching on the spring and pushing it to the side, after cleaning the back block it got much smoother.

Thanks for sharing your experience 👍

[RuleOfSines]

Still no barrels anyone?

[maninblack2k]

Still no barrels anyone?

Nope. Waiting on my barrel and the replacement stock class feed tube. Tracking says it's supposed to be to me by tomorrow, but I doubt it's accurate. Probably Monday.

[maninblack2k]

Nope. Waiting on my barrel and the replacement stock class feed tube. Tracking says it's supposed to be to me by tomorrow, but I doubt it's accurate. Probably Monday.

The replacement stock class feed and the barrel kit did come in. The only issue is that they are black and not silver. I e-mailed Scott regarding that. otherwise at least I received something that looks usable.

[FredMnkyDad10]

Wow. I just read all 8 pages. I sooooooo was hoping and looking forward to this turning out awesome. Not only on the new build for new customers but also for the original thumper buyers.

So this turned out into a crap show that they wont work right out of the box. And not only they need what sounds like a lit of work to get them running, but they are a pain to take apart. Even experience ballers might have issues putting it together.

Did I get those points right? If so, wow.

[Lt. head-shot]

Ok, so I just got back from Supergame, which Metadyne attended. I talked to Scott for probably 2 hours over the weekend. I'll try to keep this short...ish

1. Scott has seen the feedback sent to him, and knows he should be on the forums answering questions more, but long story short, family health issues. He plans on reaching out more and trying to respond on here. (I told him to hire an intern for social media postings/pictures).
2. There are only 8 people that work for Metadyne, so it is a small company, and you are likely not going to get the same level of in depth testing/10,000 round time lapse paint dumping that ANS does.
3. Scott and his cousin Brian are the ones behind Metadyne. Brian is the engineer and designer... but knows nothing about paintball. So some of the things are designed the way that an engineer would tackle the problem, not necessarily how a paintball guy would think. For example - having to use allen keys and torx on the same gun. Or how complicated the system is to take apart. Its like automotive engineers not thinking about how the mechanic is going to have to deal with taking it apart later.
4. Metadynes main production/company time is aerospace manufacturing. Paintball is the side business. So when the government wants parts for the F18... paintball stuff gets put lower on the list.
5. The velocity issue has been fixed, they needed to make the reg adjustment longer. It didn't have a problem reaching FPS at thinner altitudes, and they were trying not to have the reg adjustment so far that you could crank it up into the 330+ range.
6. A VSC model is in process. They will not be interchangeable unfortunately.
7. The only 2 parts they don't make in house is the clippard valve and the macroline fittings/line.
8. The new clippard valve is beefier, but the o-rings that come on them don't hold up to Co2.... sometimes. He said his was able to run co2 no problem, but obviously others have had issues. So they don't want to say something can work on Co2 if it is going to be a gamble.
9. The stock class feeds have been milled slightly wider on the inside. I think part of this issue may be that current tubes available are the thicker smoke kind, and they often don't fit in older styles of cram feeds/etc. So that was an oversight, but they are addressing it.
10. The number on the site is supposed to be Scott's direct line. Call him if you have an issue, or shoot him a text/email. He wants to fix any issues that people do have.
11. They are working on a fix/change for the leaking macroline fittings.
12. If you have an OG thumper, email him, he is trying to make things right. While I was there, a guy brought him a literal bag of parts and said he couldn't get it to work. Turns out he was missing the trigger spring, so there was no way to make it work that day. Scott told him to email, he would get him an RMA and get it taken care of one way or another./
13. He said they are going to try and work on some accessories in order to get us a vertical grip.
14. There are some tips/tricks for putting things back together to make sure there are not any issues, Its kind of like the old carter buzzards that if the valve and collar were juuuuuust slightly off, it would autotrigger constantly.

So after talking Scott's ear off on Friday morning, he hands me a marker and said "Go play with it and give me your honest feedback". So... I did.

1. Ok the front pumping definitely takes some getting used to, but the thumb paddles make it so much easier.
2. I had zero chopping issues. When Scott and I were talking, he pointed out that if you don't let the pump stroke come back 100% of the way, there is a small gap that occurs, which can blow air up and crack balls in the feed tube.
3. Velocity was fine, cranked it up to 280 exactly and was +- about 2 FPS over the chrono with a slight underbore to compensate for the paint inconsistency.
4. Don't run a really heavy/long barrel - ok this one is on me, I put an Apex tip on the front in order to try and compete against everyone with FSR rounds. The heavy tip weight levers against the breech and makes to pump with the thumb paddles. As soon as I took off the tip I had zero issues with pumping.
5. The grip adjustment setup is cool, but it did come loose on me at one point. Just need to make sure it is tightened down and maybe a bit of locktite, once you dial it in to your liking.
6. When the ASA did change angles, I did get some leaking from the macro fittings. Moving it back stopped the leak.
7. I really love the 1/4 ASA. Makes it quick and easy, and the knob on it is nice and large so you don't have an issue if your hands are covered in paint.
8. Had no issues with slamming in the smoke colored 10 round tubes.
9. I love the tight frame/positioning on the marker. I was able to tuck super tight into bunkers.
10. Would like to see either a thumbscrew or lever lock feedneck, just to make it an up to date marker.
11. I would kill to be able to reverse/hawaiian style the asa. I'm going to see if it is possible.
12. The trigger is super nice, love the clean break and minimal take up.

So long story short... I bought one. He let some others go and test them out too, so I am hoping they can report feedback to him as well.

[RuleOfSines]

Was it the guide/bore for the pump spring? I think several items may have been designed to a level of precision the actual machines couldn’t guarantee.

[XEMON]

It was, and it was pushing the spring to the side making for an awful pump stroke ... I threw it in the mill to clean it up and it was day and night 👍
I sent pictures to Scott along my VASA mod ...

I do feel like the pump spring is a bit light to do what it's supposed to do, I'll try something a bit stiffer next.

[binson]

I think I'm going to wait for their vsc

[xicer]

[*]Scott and his cousin Brian are the ones behind Metadyne. Brian is the engineer and designer... but knows nothing about paintball. So some of the things are designed the way that an engineer would tackle the problem, not necessarily how a paintball guy would think.

As an engineer - this is a bullshit excuse for amateur-hour engineering work. I'm almost offended at the gall of using "well its just good engineering practice outside of the paintball bubble" for this kind of nonsense.

[Lt. head-shot]

Sorry I guess I should have rephrased this. What I was trying to convey is that since Brian doesn't play paintball, he doesn't know what paintball players expect. Example - How to design a detent system that is super gentle on tournament paint. Or that players take their hoppers off often, so having a lever lock would be a good feature. Since we all weren't a "client" providing bullet point specs for design features (aka mainly Scott was), Brian couldn't have designed the marker perfectly. But to y'alls points - if they had been more active in getting feedback from the community, we would have pointed out many of the things we are pointing out now.

[xicer]

No need to rephrase. I understood you perfectly. Just, as an engineer myself I just view those as transparently bad excuses for shoddy engineering design work.

[Ecapnation]

Agreed.... Most engineers love the term "cots" or commercial off the shelf.

In my day to day I engineer what gets the most bang for the buck

[FredMnkyDad10]

Ok, so I just got back from Supergame, which Metadyne attended. I talked to Scott for probably 2 hours over the weekend. I'll try to keep this short...ish

1. Scott has seen the feedback sent to him, and knows he should be on the forums answering questions more, but long story short, family health issues. He plans on reaching out more and trying to respond on here. (I told him to hire an intern for social media postings/pictures).
2. There are only 8 people that work for Metadyne, so it is a small company, and you are likely not going to get the same level of in depth testing/10,000 round time lapse paint dumping that ANS does.
3. Scott and his cousin Brian are the ones behind Metadyne. Brian is the engineer and designer... but knows nothing about paintball. So some of the things are designed the way that an engineer would tackle the problem, not necessarily how a paintball guy would think. For example - having to use allen keys and torx on the same gun. Or how complicated the system is to take apart. Its like automotive engineers not thinking about how the mechanic is going to have to deal with taking it apart later.
4. Metadynes main production/company time is aerospace manufacturing. Paintball is the side business. So when the government wants parts for the F18... paintball stuff gets put lower on the list.
5. The velocity issue has been fixed, they needed to make the reg adjustment longer. It didn't have a problem reaching FPS at thinner altitudes, and they were trying not to have the reg adjustment so far that you could crank it up into the 330+ range.
6. A VSC model is in process. They will not be interchangeable unfortunately.
7. The only 2 parts they don't make in house is the clippard valve and the macroline fittings/line.
8. The new clippard valve is beefier, but the o-rings that come on them don't hold up to Co2.... sometimes. He said his was able to run co2 no problem, but obviously others have had issues. So they don't want to say something can work on Co2 if it is going to be a gamble.
9. The stock class feeds have been milled slightly wider on the inside. I think part of this issue may be that current tubes available are the thicker smoke kind, and they often don't fit in older styles of cram feeds/etc. So that was an oversight, but they are addressing it.
10. The number on the site is supposed to be Scott's direct line. Call him if you have an issue, or shoot him a text/email. He wants to fix any issues that people do have.
11. They are working on a fix/change for the leaking macroline fittings.
12. If you have an OG thumper, email him, he is trying to make things right. While I was there, a guy brought him a literal bag of parts and said he couldn't get it to work. Turns out he was missing the trigger spring, so there was no way to make it work that day. Scott told him to email, he would get him an RMA and get it taken care of one way or another./
13. He said they are going to try and work on some accessories in order to get us a vertical grip.
14. There are some tips/tricks for putting things back together to make sure there are not any issues, Its kind of like the old carter buzzards that if the valve and collar were juuuuuust slightly off, it would autotrigger constantly.

So after talking Scott's ear off on Friday morning, he hands me a marker and said "Go play with it and give me your honest feedback". So... I did.

1. Ok the front pumping definitely takes some getting used to, but the thumb paddles make it so much easier.
2. I had zero chopping issues. When Scott and I were talking, he pointed out that if you don't let the pump stroke come back 100% of the way, there is a small gap that occurs, which can blow air up and crack balls in the feed tube.
3. Velocity was fine, cranked it up to 280 exactly and was +- about 2 FPS over the chrono with a slight underbore to compensate for the paint inconsistency.
4. Don't run a really heavy/long barrel - ok this one is on me, I put an Apex tip on the front in order to try and compete against everyone with FSR rounds. The heavy tip weight levers against the breech and makes to pump with the thumb paddles. As soon as I took off the tip I had zero issues with pumping.
5. The grip adjustment setup is cool, but it did come loose on me at one point. Just need to make sure it is tightened down and maybe a bit of locktite, once you dial it in to your liking.
6. When the ASA did change angles, I did get some leaking from the macro fittings. Moving it back stopped the leak.
7. I really love the 1/4 ASA. Makes it quick and easy, and the knob on it is nice and large so you don't have an issue if your hands are covered in paint.
8. Had no issues with slamming in the smoke colored 10 round tubes.
9. I love the tight frame/positioning on the marker. I was able to tuck super tight into bunkers.
10. Would like to see either a thumbscrew or lever lock feedneck, just to make it an up to date marker.
11. I would kill to be able to reverse/hawaiian style the asa. I'm going to see if it is possible.
12. The trigger is super nice, love the clean break and minimal take up.

So long story short... I bought one. He let some others go and test them out too, so I am hoping they can report feedback to him as well.

Hopefully they correct everything or update it to make it like it should.

Maybe by 2.0 they can improve it. I know I was excited when these first came out. And so was looking forward with high hope for the new version.

[XEMON]

Unless there is some major redesign of a few major parts, the next jump will be similar as the last one 😞

[RuleOfSines]

Just picked up on the New Clippard valve comment, are they saying the valve in the Phoenix is different than the one in the Thumper? Could have sworn I had them both side by side and its the same valve.

[XEMON]

It's "the same" but there is huge variation in manufacturing from one batch to the next, some hold perfectly fine with CO2, other self destruct pretty quickly ...

[Riot]

Oof. As I was reading it, I was loving what I saw, but I can’t help but feel like we’ve been down this road before. Fool me once… and all that.

That said, I still hope 3.0 is flawless. I feel even though Scott may have been a good dude, the marker, even with Lt. Head-Shots detailed description, isn’t good enough out of the box.

At this point, in my opinion, the ONLY thing they can do is keep working until it’s made right. Anything else would be career suicide (the paintball portion, anyways)

I’ve never shot one, but I did enjoy fondling it at Slim’s last year before it shit the bed immediately. So, should this ever get resolved for real, I’m still in.

[Timefreak17]

Thumper vs Phoenix - .685 control bore ac barrel used on both

Thumper- running 650 psi regulated 12g co2
Shooting average 28 rounds per 12g
Fps- Average 267 over 50 shots. Small 8fps swings at times under full pressure and 100fps swings at end of cartridge
full velocity adjustment

Phoenix - running the same 650 psi regulated 12g CO2
Shooting an average 20 rounds per 12g
Fps- Average 244fps over 40 usable shots measured. After dialed in.
The velocity adjuster was run all the way to max then backed off a 1/4 turn.
Also when airing up there was a slight pop of the pistons or valves seating themselves.
Everything ran smooth over 100 shots mechanically. Just not fps wise.
At times it would shoot 340fps then drop to 167 fps. Just wild velocity swings.
Holding the barrel back against the breech while shooting gave me higher fps in 260 to 340 swing range at times.


The phoenix was all over the place in fps. On 12g carts.
I have a feeling it would like 800 psi 12g pressure more, but I believe the mav-3c valve won't like it. Since that valve should be maxed at 300psi based off of valve specs.
I would like more velocity adjustment for lower pressures to keep that valve within operating pressure.

The thumper was consistent the whole time with very little velocity swings until end of the 12g.

Any thoughts on getting more velocity adjustment with lower pressure in the Phoenix?


Update: no ball breaks while firing in either markers. By some miracle.

[RuleOfSines]

I made a completely new front end for mine in order to get good velocity, I think ended up hitting 290fps at 200 psi maybe? It’s in one of my videos in this thread. Couldn’t get close to that with the stock breech setup.

[Timefreak17]

What tools would work for making those adjustments under a normal garage setup. Just hand drills and limited power tools

[JustMrLarz]

Well, despite what I’ve read here, and seen on RuleOfSines’ YouTube channel… I bought one anyway. My Thumper runs great when I use HPA or my PPS 12 gram so maybe I will get lucky here, too.
When I ordered the Phoenix I did request a replacement detent for my Thumper as well, but I haven’t heard back from Scott on that yet. I could print one if I had access to a 3D printer, but I don’t & that’s the only thing keeping me from using it right now.

Despite the issues, I am still excited to have a new tinker-toy. Being able to rock & cock will be a huge win! Having missed cocks on the Thumper because it wasn’t horizontal enough for the pawl to catch was irritating.

[Timefreak17]

If you need a detent for the thumper, you can use a Tippmann 98 detent and cut the tabs off both ends.
This is also pending what version breech you have.

[dozernaut]

If anyone wants mine, I'll let it go cheap.

[Jonnydread]

I think RuleOfSines was looking for a cheap one awhile back.

[RuleOfSines]

Yep I’m interested.

[FredMnkyDad10]

So should we wait for version 4-5.