Metadyne Thumper/Phoenix Redux

[XEMON]

Unless there is some major redesign of a few major parts, the next jump will be similar as the last one 😞

[Ecapnation]

Agreed.... Most engineers love the term "cots" or commercial off the shelf.

In my day to day I engineer what gets the most bang for the buck

[RuleOfSines]

Yep, 2.0 came and went. Waiting on 3.0 now.

[XEMON]

This is 2.0 👍

[FredMnkyDad10]

Ok, so I just got back from Supergame, which Metadyne attended. I talked to Scott for probably 2 hours over the weekend. I'll try to keep this short...ish

1. Scott has seen the feedback sent to him, and knows he should be on the forums answering questions more, but long story short, family health issues. He plans on reaching out more and trying to respond on here. (I told him to hire an intern for social media postings/pictures).
2. There are only 8 people that work for Metadyne, so it is a small company, and you are likely not going to get the same level of in depth testing/10,000 round time lapse paint dumping that ANS does.
3. Scott and his cousin Brian are the ones behind Metadyne. Brian is the engineer and designer... but knows nothing about paintball. So some of the things are designed the way that an engineer would tackle the problem, not necessarily how a paintball guy would think. For example - having to use allen keys and torx on the same gun. Or how complicated the system is to take apart. Its like automotive engineers not thinking about how the mechanic is going to have to deal with taking it apart later.
4. Metadynes main production/company time is aerospace manufacturing. Paintball is the side business. So when the government wants parts for the F18... paintball stuff gets put lower on the list.
5. The velocity issue has been fixed, they needed to make the reg adjustment longer. It didn't have a problem reaching FPS at thinner altitudes, and they were trying not to have the reg adjustment so far that you could crank it up into the 330+ range.
6. A VSC model is in process. They will not be interchangeable unfortunately.
7. The only 2 parts they don't make in house is the clippard valve and the macroline fittings/line.
8. The new clippard valve is beefier, but the o-rings that come on them don't hold up to Co2.... sometimes. He said his was able to run co2 no problem, but obviously others have had issues. So they don't want to say something can work on Co2 if it is going to be a gamble.
9. The stock class feeds have been milled slightly wider on the inside. I think part of this issue may be that current tubes available are the thicker smoke kind, and they often don't fit in older styles of cram feeds/etc. So that was an oversight, but they are addressing it.
10. The number on the site is supposed to be Scott's direct line. Call him if you have an issue, or shoot him a text/email. He wants to fix any issues that people do have.
11. They are working on a fix/change for the leaking macroline fittings.
12. If you have an OG thumper, email him, he is trying to make things right. While I was there, a guy brought him a literal bag of parts and said he couldn't get it to work. Turns out he was missing the trigger spring, so there was no way to make it work that day. Scott told him to email, he would get him an RMA and get it taken care of one way or another./
13. He said they are going to try and work on some accessories in order to get us a vertical grip.
14. There are some tips/tricks for putting things back together to make sure there are not any issues, Its kind of like the old carter buzzards that if the valve and collar were juuuuuust slightly off, it would autotrigger constantly.

So after talking Scott's ear off on Friday morning, he hands me a marker and said "Go play with it and give me your honest feedback". So... I did.

1. Ok the front pumping definitely takes some getting used to, but the thumb paddles make it so much easier.
2. I had zero chopping issues. When Scott and I were talking, he pointed out that if you don't let the pump stroke come back 100% of the way, there is a small gap that occurs, which can blow air up and crack balls in the feed tube.
3. Velocity was fine, cranked it up to 280 exactly and was +- about 2 FPS over the chrono with a slight underbore to compensate for the paint inconsistency.
4. Don't run a really heavy/long barrel - ok this one is on me, I put an Apex tip on the front in order to try and compete against everyone with FSR rounds. The heavy tip weight levers against the breech and makes to pump with the thumb paddles. As soon as I took off the tip I had zero issues with pumping.
5. The grip adjustment setup is cool, but it did come loose on me at one point. Just need to make sure it is tightened down and maybe a bit of locktite, once you dial it in to your liking.
6. When the ASA did change angles, I did get some leaking from the macro fittings. Moving it back stopped the leak.
7. I really love the 1/4 ASA. Makes it quick and easy, and the knob on it is nice and large so you don't have an issue if your hands are covered in paint.
8. Had no issues with slamming in the smoke colored 10 round tubes.
9. I love the tight frame/positioning on the marker. I was able to tuck super tight into bunkers.
10. Would like to see either a thumbscrew or lever lock feedneck, just to make it an up to date marker.
11. I would kill to be able to reverse/hawaiian style the asa. I'm going to see if it is possible.
12. The trigger is super nice, love the clean break and minimal take up.

So long story short... I bought one. He let some others go and test them out too, so I am hoping they can report feedback to him as well.

Hopefully they correct everything or update it to make it like it should.

Maybe by 2.0 they can improve it. I know I was excited when these first came out. And so was looking forward with high hope for the new version.

[xicer]

No need to rephrase. I understood you perfectly. Just, as an engineer myself I just view those as transparently bad excuses for shoddy engineering design work.

[Lt. head-shot]

Sorry I guess I should have rephrased this. What I was trying to convey is that since Brian doesn't play paintball, he doesn't know what paintball players expect. Example - How to design a detent system that is super gentle on tournament paint. Or that players take their hoppers off often, so having a lever lock would be a good feature. Since we all weren't a "client" providing bullet point specs for design features (aka mainly Scott was), Brian couldn't have designed the marker perfectly. But to y'alls points - if they had been more active in getting feedback from the community, we would have pointed out many of the things we are pointing out now.

[XEMON]

I offered to purchase a preproduction/prototype to test and give my feedback and never got a response either ....

[superman]

I actually helped with some of the early release of the n-1 stuff. The front grip was part of my contribution as well as connecting nova to sconi for the feedneck and barrel inserts.

[xicer]

Agreed. As unimpressed as I've been with Nova's actual output, other companies should look at them as an example of how to release products in this industry as a small business. Constantly engaged, consistently taking feedback, active in the community. Pretty much the opposite of what Metadyne is doing.

[superman]

I completely agree.
Good engineering practice would have been to do a small beta release gather feedback and revise. MCB would have been the perfect place for it. I originally reached out to offer to test it as well with no response. Personally it is crazy they didn't take advantage of the experience on mcb to both better the product and also help promote the changes before production as well.

[xicer]

[*]Scott and his cousin Brian are the ones behind Metadyne. Brian is the engineer and designer... but knows nothing about paintball. So some of the things are designed the way that an engineer would tackle the problem, not necessarily how a paintball guy would think.

As an engineer - this is a bullshit excuse for amateur-hour engineering work. I'm almost offended at the gall of using "well its just good engineering practice outside of the paintball bubble" for this kind of nonsense.

[binson]

I think I'm going to wait for their vsc

[XEMON]

It was, and it was pushing the spring to the side making for an awful pump stroke ... I threw it in the mill to clean it up and it was day and night 👍
I sent pictures to Scott along my VASA mod ...

I do feel like the pump spring is a bit light to do what it's supposed to do, I'll try something a bit stiffer next.

[RuleOfSines]

Was it the guide/bore for the pump spring? I think several items may have been designed to a level of precision the actual machines couldn’t guarantee.