Dye DFF-20 Lazarus Valve

[imped4now]

Breech-sensing: There is a hole on the exhaust side of the pin and inside the bore where the spring sits, with a communication passage between the holes. The U-Cup seal seals off the "spring chamber" side of the pin. When the valve opens to fire, some of the air rushing to the bolt/ball travels into the hole, through the passage and into the spring chamber (the closing surface area of the valve) to provide a closing bias. This is the exact same concept seen on any modern breech-sensing spool valve - IV Core, Gamma, ARC, etc. This is why there is an orifice at the tip of the valve with a passage extending the length to the small chamber behind the valve - to provide extra closing bias.

CS1 example: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/cs1b.gif
Gamma example: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/gtek.gif

In the Gamma's case, the air saved by the advanced valve closure is responsible for resetting the bolt to its home position.

The breech-sensing concept was introduced by Lurker with the Control Freak poppet and in a production marker with the PE IV Core.

[flyweightnate]

Ok, so the "breech sensing" part worries me, then. I had a design once with this "feature"; it was a pain to bench test because it would just chirp. Then I put my finger over the exhaust and the other student in the lab nearly pooped it was so loud.

I think this might be the most important thing to get a grasp of before I consider buying; a venturi bolt might stabilize this.

[Cyrus-the-virus]

Well color me intrigued. I have an empire sniper that I haven't done much with just yet.

[latches109]

I've seen a few mentions in here, but just to reiterate, it's not a copy or evolution of the morph valve. It's essentially Lurker's control freak poppet for the Gen4 Timmys (which was released in 2012).

”We sampled it from them but it’s not the same bassline. It goes ‘ding ding ding di di ding ding… ding ding ding di di ding ding.’ That’s the way theirs goes. Ours goes ‘ding ding ding di di ding ding… DING… ding ding ding di di ding ding.’ That little bitty change — it’s not the same.” -vanilla ice didn't he loose this lawsuit.




Taking your engine and put it in someone else's design, does not make the whole thing yours. Did they design a self-contained autococker valve I missed? (rhetorical)

It does not matter if it's a copy anyway. Every aftermarket valve for autocockers is a copy, each brand changed something small they thought was a benefit. We still bought them even though the stock valve shoots fine.

After testing it today, I think it is a better design than the morph and perfect for a Trilogy. It might be a very efficient valve. I'll test it out.

[Trbo323]

Would somebody please give me a simple breakdown of how a valve can been "breech-sensing"? My base understanding is that these types of valves (I know they're different, I'm generalizing) are adjustable from the HPR side so you have pinpoint control and can balance the valve operation more finely. Is this reasonably close or am I missing the point?

Anything is new technology if you apply the right marketing

"SFT" anyone?

(As a disclaimer, I don't actually know what they are referring to with that phrase, my gut says it's marketing over anything)

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[zinger565]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but "breech-sensing" means that it is reactive to back pressure as the air pulse hits the ball (or nothing). So an undersized ball/overbored barrel will have less back pressure and the valve will remain open longer, where as an exact bore (or underbore) will have a higher back pressure and the valve will close quicker. Essentially adding some "compensation" to velocity due to variable paint sizing.

The "balanced" part of this just means that there isn't a significant closing pressure from the hpr, means it takes less force to open the valve, and there's less force slamming the valve shut.

[latches109]

imped4now we will just have to disagree. I see a copy with some "improvements" / applied their opinions on the design.
Function is the same, the morph also has holes to the spring chamber, you have to deal with vacuum some how.

[Jonnydread]

Would somebody please give me a simple breakdown of how a valve can been "breech-sensing"? My base understanding is that these types of valves (I know they're different, I'm generalizing) are adjustable from the HPR side so you have pinpoint control and can balance the valve operation more finely. Is this reasonably close or am I missing the point?

[imped4now]

I can confirm you can play with these in other markers - be prudent to compare the critical dimensions, as already mentioned. I've run a Lazarus in an 06 Cyborg and a Deception.

[imped4now]

I agree - improved seals in a Morph make it very reliable. I run an X-Ring on the on the front and cast urethane on the rear.

[imped4now]

cfos00, you'll want to lighten up the mass/spring rate to optimize efficiency since the opening force is so light. The closing speed will only be aided by reducing the hammer mass/spring rate since the breech-sensing closing bias is a little laggy.

[imped4now]

As someone who's been *extremely* close to the DLS project since day one, it's not "extremely finicky." It suffered from a couple poor decisions made in the manufacturing and QC phases, which trickled down to suspect paint handling in a percentage of markers. The rear gate is also an issue. You'll be seeing a V2 bolt assembly released shortly that addresses the issues. In terms of spool valve markers and the shear ability to cycle under any condition, you won't do better than the DLS. No solenoid spool, only a couple dynamic seals and a ton of shift force = superb cycling reliability. The DLS also shares nothing with "old Dye."

[imped4now]

The "idea" actually came from the Lurker Control Freak poppet, not the Morph. The Morph, while solid and a valve that I use in multiple markers, did not introduce any new concepts.

[imped4now]

The designer of the Lazarus is a big Lurker fan (Ryan and him are very close), and they also worked together on the DLS. So yes, this is a modernized Control Freak (the valve that introduced breech-sensing to paintball).

[imped4now]

The designer of the Lazarus historically despises the Morph...FYI. It's not a "copy."

I own all valves pictured (and don't despise the Morph), so I'm not spouting random BS or trying to argue. The Morph "senses" the firing pulse due to position, while the Lazarus has direct communication between the shot pulse and spring chamber. I suspect the Lazarus has less opening force, but also less closing force, especially given the difference in spring rate.